Terri Schiavo’s Family Urges Life Support For Brain Dead Teen

Jahi McMath's family hopes to get her moved to a new hospital

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McMath Family / AP

Jahi McMath

The family of Terri Schiavo, the brain-damaged Florida woman who died in 2005 after almost 15 years in a vegetative state, has urged continued life support for a California teenager left brain dead after a tonsillectomy.

Jahi McMath, 13, was declared brain dead after the operation last month, and her doctors and a judge agree there is no chance she will ever wake up, CNN reports. Her family said she started hemorrhaging and went into cardiac arrest following the routine tonsil removal procedure.

A judge has ruled that Children’s Hospital Oakland must turn off the McMath’s ventilator at 5 p.m. on Jan. 7. McMath’s family wants her moved to a New York facility that they believe can help their daughter, but McMath’s uncle said the hospital “refused to agree to allow us to proceed in that matter.”

“Together with our team of experts, Terri’s Network believes Jahi’s case is representative of a very deep problem within the U.S. healthcare system — particularly those issues surrounding the deaths of patients within the confines of hospital corporations, which have a vested financial interest in discontinuing life,” the Terri Schiavo Life & Hope network said in a statement.

“We have done everything to assist the family of Jahi McMath in their quest to take the deceased body of their daughter to another medical facility,” a hospital spokesman said. “To date, they have been unwilling or unable to provide a physician to perform the procedures necessary, transportation, or a facility that would accept a dead person on a ventilator.”

Family attorney Christopher Dolan said that the hospital was “hell-bent” on refusing Jahi further treatment.

The legal battle over Terri Schiavo’s life support made headlines in 2005 when her husband Michael Schiavo insisted on removing her from life support against her parents’ wishes.

[CNN]

(MORE: A Mother’s Fight to Keep Her 13 Year Old Daughter On Life Support)

160 comments
marizel
marizel

I never thought, in my whole life, that I would be writing to thank someone for casting a love spell on my marriage, but that day has arrived! It’s true that I didn’t believe in this kind of thing at all, but now i do since i had my husband back to my life last month after all i have been through as a single mother but now i can give thanks to Dr. Ekaka  email: ekakaspelltemple@yahoo.com for the love spell he had on my husband and now we are living as a happy family again. It was truly a one-of-a-kind experience,

FrantzVancol
FrantzVancol

Une simple opération d’amygdale a causé sa mort? Quelle malheureuse et triste histoire  !!! Est-elle morte, á 13 ans d’âge??? She is only 13 years old, is she dead from a simple tonsil surgery? What a fatal and sad drama!!!

tla125
tla125

I can understand the family not wanting to let go none of us would want to out live our child, that is our selfish side. But if she is unable to breath on here own, without any help from a machine, doesn't that mean she is already gone? A feeding tube for a coma patient is one thing, but to have a machine breathing for her. This will never get easier for this family sitting by her bedside every day.  God Speed and help this family let go and let her go. 

MMA
MMA

Miracles never cease!!! Too bad so many of you are blind to this reality.

Hope lives!

My prayers for Jahi & her family during this difficult time.

OldilocksBC
OldilocksBC

The Shiavos ESPECIALLY should realize the fallacy of artificially keeping this poor little girl's body "alive" (really, just warm). They are the ones who fought their daughter's husband tooth and nail to keep Terri "alive." They kept professing that Terri would react whenever they were in the room, "proving" that Terri was sentient -- even though everything medical indicated Terri would never come out of her vegetative state.

After years and years of fighting, Terri's husband was finally to honor Terri's previous wishes to let her go.

An autopsy was done. Terri's brain was half the size of a regular brain and had the consistency of pudding. Is THAT being alive???

BeckyByrum
BeckyByrum

I prayer for this little Girl, but I think she is with God now,

I also pray for her family.

BeckyByrum
BeckyByrum

My question is once they unplug jahi will they be able to restart her heart?

jimmyharpoon
jimmyharpoon

Schiavo's - keep your nose out of this families'  pain. And, are you claiming that physicians are killing people for profit?


".........those issues surrounding the deaths of patients within the confines of hospital corporations, which have a vested financial interest in discontinuing life,”


You are just causing damage.



AnushkaLovell
AnushkaLovell

It is a very tragic story indeed and while no one can comprehend the pain of her family, unless one has faced a similar situation like kayla's mom - it is often difficult to let go as long as the person is physically lying there, one feels they are still there. Just seeing them is satisfaction in itself, even though they may be dead. 

What I curious about is how a child went from having just form a tonsillectomy to being brain dead? That is what really needed to be investigated. If the Doctors and Hospital have messed up - then I think this family has every right to expose them. I am speculating but when I hear the Doctor say "more complicated than tonsillectomy" then I don't understand either it was for tonsillectomy or something more severe. There was a mention of sleep apnea. When the girl went into cardiac arrest, what did they do? How did she become brain dead? What were the immediate steps taken. It's all very vague.


When I came across this story, I could not blame Jahi's parents for wanting to hang on.


'Miracle recovery' of teen declared brain dead by four doctors A teenager who was declared brain dead by four doctors has made a "miracle" recovery after his parents asked for another medical opinion, just moments before his life support machine could have been switched off. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9223408/Miracle-recovery-of-teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

  Man makes “miraculous” recovery from brain death after accident 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.co/news/man_makes_miraculous_recovery_from_brain_death_after_accident/

Miracles have been known to happen across the world so I surrender into GOD's hands. As for the surgery, if the hospital is so confident that she is brain dead and the parents wish to get a 2nd opinion, then the parents have a right to do so. Look at the article about the boy who made that miraculous recovery. I don't see how the hospital can hold back.

 



Kayla'sMom
Kayla'sMom

What a tragic story! My heart goes out to all of Jahi's family and friends who love her so dearly.  My daughter was also declared brain dead; she was connected to a ventillator and it was so hard to hear she was gone when she could still react to me holding her hand and I could see her breathing.  the reality was that dead was dead.  It is hard to hear and I am so sorry for you to have to go through this .  Please listen to your doctors, do your research to understand what is happening.  Maybe some good can come from this if you decide on end of life care for Jahi.  She can save lives by becoming an organ donor.  My daughter saved 7 people. 7 families that did not have to go through what I was going through.  Don't let her life go to waste.  This is so tragic, but some good can come of it

Kayla'sMom
Kayla'sMom

It is very shameful for TIME to put in the headline that the family wants to keep their child on "Life Support" when she has been declared brain dead; she is on a mechanical ventillator, not life support.  I know as a Registered Nurse who worked in a neurosurgical unit as well as a mother who had to choose to turn off the ventillator to let her little girl go. 

PattyPollickSchade
PattyPollickSchade

Just watched CNN. The court is ordering both parties (Jahi's family and Hospital) to come to a settlement tomorrow. Not a monetary settlement but an agreement as to what they are going to do. Hopefully they can come to a decision that is reasonable for all. I would assume that the family will want it their way or no way.I hope this child finds peace soon. Next thing you know other kooks will come out of the woodwork. Maybe "facilitated communication" will be introduced and we will hear what that child has to say??....The kooks will come.

jdufosee07
jdufosee07

Can someone explain this for me...... I totally agree that this poor beautiful girl is brain dead and will never recover and her family needs to LET HER GO..... the court appointed doctor even stated that her pupils are fixed and dilated but people are making comments that she will start to decompose laying there in bed hooked up to all her machines.... how can she start to decompose when there is still gas exchange at the cellular level with the machine still pumping her heart? I just thought decomposition starts with cellular death after the heart stops....

featherknife
featherknife

This poor girls situation has been accurately described as dead. It's over. The legal case will be decided in court, using the medical chart as the primary source of information. The important point here is how this will impact medical care and end of life issues in the future. It's a very important matter, not because of all the dead people that will be saved, there will be very few to none. It's important because of the inaccuracies and other than medical or scientific points of view that will be listened to and acted upon by those with little or no knowledge of the scientific facts. It has the potential to impact all of us financially, medically, and legally. This is a crucial time that could be used to educate the public. The government, our medical institutions, and the media all could be helping with this. It is being used by the media, however, in unproductive ways, to spread fear and the hysterical opinions of fringe activists unsupported by fact, current medical ethics and practice, and current law. This family should not be respected iamrich77. They are a confusing and destructive voice in a very serious matter. They do not have the right to determine what is best medically for a dead person. Everyone will have to walk in their shoes sooner or later. Be very careful with how you approach this. Absolutely be kind. Be kind to the deceased, and to the hundreds of thousands of people working as our doctors and in our hospitals. Be kind to the families who have to make heart breaking decisions about their loved ones. None of these decisions, by the way, include resurrection. This is one case that needs to be taken to our highest courts, and a clear, strong decision is needed based on the best current medical and legal opinions. But Jahi, a beautiful little girl, needs to be respected, and buried in the manner that we treat the dead. She is dead. 

iamrich77
iamrich77

THIS FAMILY SHOULD BE RESPECTED AS A FAMILY WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEIR LOVED ONE.  WHAT IF YOU HAD TO WALK IN THESE SHOES.  BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU SAY BECAUSE IT MIGHT COME BACK TO BITE YOU,  BE KIND TO THIS FAMILY AND BE KIND TO EACH OTHER,

sophieschoice
sophieschoice

For all of those people that insist that this poor girl be kept on a ventilator and that maybe she can survive, think of a person who has been decapitated. Because brain death is equal to decapitation. Have you ever heard of a person without a head surviving? If you have, please let me know! 

minigarments2
minigarments2

She's legally dead-the hospital has no legal obligation to continue treatment.

ChristianaMiller
ChristianaMiller

Disappointed in you, TIME. Jani is not on "life support", she is on mechanical support. Your headline is misleading. Also, doctors and the judge are not saying she will "never wake up", they are saying she is dead. Dead people have never been known to "wake up".

As for the family of Terri Schiavo joining in the circus that case has become, shame on them.

tomciesielka
tomciesielka

“Could your daughter be the next Jahi McMath?,” asks Life Legal Defense Foundation Executive Director Dana Cody, “For many families, something this unthinkable will never happen, but in the event it does, it’s critically important to know your legal rights.”  

thoughtcrimefactory
thoughtcrimefactory

Currently, the loony mother is Jahi's Guardian Ad Litem. This needs to be wrested from her, and a REAL Guardian Ad Litem appointed. The mother is too psychotic to make such decisions.

BrianTheCobraSmith
BrianTheCobraSmith

Children’s Hospital, please stop antagonizing this grieving family and instead show some compassion for the family of this little girl whose brain you so badly damaged. Why is it so important to you that you stop this poor child’s beating heart? You really should be kissing this family’s behind after what you did to their child and what your negligence has caused, instead of fighting them every step of the way and using the media to antagonize them. And now, if you can't unplug her, you seem determined to starve her.  It's horrible. The world sees what you are doing.

LizLaBalbo
LizLaBalbo

@OldilocksBC I had learned of Terri's autopsy while in a seminar for Hopsice and Palliative care. My instructor did her masters thesis on the Schiavo case. It a shame for Terri's family to still be so selfishly delusional.

 Everyone is praying for that family and the girl. Its just that the dead don't miraculously rise up and walk away from it. As a hospice NA, the family needs end of life counseling.

miasma54
miasma54

@BeckyByrum , technically, it might be possible if not much time passes and not much deterioration of the electrical conductivity signalling apparatus takes place. But it's irrelevant. Jahi's heart could be kept beating for weeks or months or maybe even longer though modern medical technology, yet she would still be dead. I'm trying to explain that "brain dead" is, fully and competely, dead. In fact, there are occasional "miraculous" recoveries from apparent ceassation of cardiac and breathing  functions (the other definition of death besides brain death is irreversible cessation of heart functioning and breathing); but never are there such recoveries from correctly diagnosed brain death. The folks who post otherwis vis-a-vis "miracles" do not understand the cases, or medicine.

JacquelineAvila
JacquelineAvila

@Sigrid  Excerpts from the article you linked "Steven Thorpe, then 17, suffered horrific injuries in a multiple car crash, leaving him in a medically-induced coma" and ".....and medics decided to attempt to bring him out of his coma."

OldilocksBC
OldilocksBC

@Sigrid

I read the link you posted and saw this quote: "If my parents hadn't asked for the second opinion, and if Julia hadn't been there, I wouldn't be here today."

THREE doctors have checked the girl and pronounced her brain dead. How many medical opinions does it take to finally realize the truth?

howard04
howard04

Who is paying for all this?!

DeweySayenoff
DeweySayenoff

@SheilaGuerinGuy

I have been in that position and didn't hesitate to pull the plug.  It was the expressed wish of my brother not to be maintained like that. And, frankly, I didn't want to wake up from the nightmare that I would have had if he HAD BEEN ALIVE and kept like that for the rest of his life.

This girls is legally dead.  Schaivo had some brain activity (about as much as lime jello does) which kept her from being declared dead.  This girl has none, and HAS been declared dead.  She has a death certificate. 

My brother lives on in 7 other people who got his organs and tissue - also as he wanted.  When this girl's body on a respirator expires, chances are the organs and tissues normally healthy enough for the gift of life will be atrophied and unusable, meaning this family has NO CHANCE to know that at least some of her lives on and have the solace of knowing that her death gave life to others.

In the meantime, a bed that could be used for someone to actually help them to live is taken up by a dead person.  Resources that could go toward life and hope are dedicated to sustaining delusion and sorrow.  As with my brother's death, this girl's death was unexpected and tragic.  But until her body is laid to rest, and unless others can benefit from her death, all that's happening now is suffering with no chance for healing and acceptance to begin.

And while that body is taking up the space a living person could use, it certainly is someone else's business to interfere.  This family is entitled to their grief.  They are not entitled to impose grief on others because just they can't accept reality.

DeweySayenoff
DeweySayenoff

@AnushkaLovell

The mythological BS about gods and devils and playing into the notion of false hope aside, you asked a very good question:  "how a child went from having just form a tonsillectomy to being brain dead? That is what really needed to be investigated."

The fact is ANY surgery carries a significant risk of complications that often lead to death.   100,000 people die EACH YEAR strictly due to post-operative complications (another quarter million die due to infections).  It isn't a rare phenomenon.

In this girl's case, she likely suffered a rupture of either the carotid artery or jugular vein (very close to the tonsils) - something that can easily happen.  Bleeding happens in 2-4% of tonsillectomy patients alone.  Between inhaling blood that blocked her lungs and the loss of blood, her brain was oxygen starved for over 15 minutes (according to some reports).  It is still flatline, meaning no brain activity at all, and she has been declared dead because in all of recorded history, no one who has been flatline and declared dead because of it has ever come back.

Not once.

In all the "miracles" that have happened where someone goes into a coma for days, months or years and then come back, they've not been declared dead and they had at least SOME brain activity.  This girl has none.

People who have flatlined and come back are usually under a medically induced coma accompanied by hypothermia treatments.  Anecdotal stories abound for kids who have been submerged in icy water for up to 45 minutes and have some back (always due to the preserving nature of their extremely low internal body temperature).  But it's never happened for someone at room temperature due to hypoxia in the first place.

Gods and devils notwithstanding, the only "miracle" here would be for the family to accept it, donate her organs to bring meaning to her tragic death, bury her and get on with the process of acceptance and healing.

Because as long as she's laying there, they're not going to accept that she's dead.

featherknife
featherknife

@jdufosee07 It has been determined by physicians that have evaluated her for brain function that there is no blood flow to her brain. It was reported by the last court appointed doctor to do this evaluation that her brain is decomposing. Also, while a ventilator can perform the function of respiration to some degree, tissue per fusion is not what it can be with natural respirations and ennervation from the central nervous system. If you went to a long term care facility where people were on ventilators you would see that these people are not the picture of health, with steady deterioration evident. 

sophieschoice
sophieschoice

@featherknife Great comment. I so agree. But I hope that this case will never go to higher courts. Let the court that extended the time this body is on ventilation let the issue terminate on January 7.

Kayla'sMom
Kayla'sMom

@iamrich77I agree that this family should be respected.  I have walked in their shoes.  All the medical tests that are done to determine brain death would never work on someone who is just in a coma, they would respond.  This child has mercifully passed on and her soul is in God's hands now.  I pray for her family and friends to come to terms with what is happening and find peace in this tragic situation. 

cdeva777
cdeva777

@iamrich77 AND YOU THINK THEIR CHOICE TO KEEP THEIR DEAD  DAUGHTER ON A MACHINE FOREVER IS THE RIGHT DETERMINATION FOR THEIR LOVED ONE?????  ARE U CRAZY TOO???? IF I HAD TO WALK IN THEIR SHOES, I WOULD LET MY CHILD GO.  WHY WOULD I WANT MY DEAD CHILD TO BE KEPT ALIVE BY MACHINES????  GET A GRIP!!!!!  NO ONE IS BEING UNKIND TO THIS POOR FAMILY WHO OBVIOUSLY HAS NO SENSE WHATSOEVER...WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO SEE THEIR BELOVED CHILD DEAD AND KEPT ON A MACHINE????  IT'S LIKE A SCI-FI MOVIE!!!!  HER SOUL IS ALREADY IN A DIFFERENT PLACE...IT'S JUST HER FLESH LAYING THERE PERIOD...

RoseleaLaufenberg
RoseleaLaufenberg

@ChristianaMiller READ THE STORY OF LAZARUS, my friend-or Jairus' daughter or many others Jesus raised from the dead. Just because you don't believe doesn't mean He is not once again on the scene. 

ThinkBeoreYouSpeak
ThinkBeoreYouSpeak

@ChristianaMiller  


Four medical specialists declared 17-year-old Steven Thorpe brain dead after he suffered devastating injuries in a 2008 car accident, and prepared to harvest his organs. But Thorpe's family had second thoughts, refusing to give the okay to end his life. And it's a good thing because Thorpe woke up from his “irreversible” brain damage and five years later is making, by his own estimation, a “full recovery.”

http://thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/15244-brain-dead-brit-escapes-death-sentence-of-organ-harvesting-doctors



sophieschoice
sophieschoice

@ChristianaMiller I totally agree with you! This whole issue is a sham and disgraceful. The girl is dead and she should be buried and left in peace.

ChristianaMiller
ChristianaMiller

"Thought"- I hope the hospital has a call in to the National Guard. When it comes time to remove the vent this loony mother and the equally loony supporters are going to create one heck of a scene at the hospital.

AmandaAltamirano
AmandaAltamirano

The hospital show be cooperating and kissing the parents behind. Only reason that they could be so adament about closing this chapter is because they don't want her to get to NY and be on the ventilator for years at their expense. They are looking at stopping their own financial bleeding.

sophieschoice
sophieschoice

@BrianTheCobraSmith Who are you, the uncle or the family's lawyer? Stop slamming the hospital. The true facts of this dismal case have not been released in its entirety because the family has refused to allow the hospital to release their information. All the information that has been released thus far via media coverage is the family's slanted views.  

ChristianaMiller
ChristianaMiller

So you have evidence that the hospital was negligent? Interesting, seeing as how no autopsy has been performed and no medical evidence presented in court.

mcricci
mcricci

@BrianTheCobraSmith Starve her? She is deceased! There is no peristalsis in her digestive system to digest food! THE BRAIN IS THE CONTROL CENTER FOR THE BODY AND IF IT IS DEAD IT CAN NOT SEND SIGNALS TELLING THE REST OF THE BODY TO FUNCTION! 

JulieLuffman-Pitts
JulieLuffman-Pitts

@BrianTheCobraSmith This is exactly my opinion, word for word.  They should do whatever they can possibly do to make the family feel better.  Yet they continue to fer to Jahi as the "dead person" or "the deceased".  I'm amazed that they aren't apologizing all over the place and asking what they can do to support the family.  They are trying to remove their child from this facility - LET THEM.  Then the hospital doesn't have to deal with them anymore and vice versa.  

Also - those who say she is not coming back - google "Steven Thorpe brain dead".  4 doctors said he was brain dead.  They were going to unplug him.  Guess what?  Those 4 were wrong.  He's alive and well today.

dimensio
dimensio

@BrianTheCobraSmith The past errors of the hospital do not alter the fact that Ms. McMath is now deceased, and no known medical procedures will alter that diagnosis.

RoseleaLaufenberg
RoseleaLaufenberg

@MMA stop putting God in a box and limiting His ability to heal. He is limited by nothing-especially not man and his depraved lack of faith. I say-"ARISE< JAHI< IN THE NAME OF JESUS AND LIVE TO GLORIFY GOD!!!!!!

RoseleaLaufenberg
RoseleaLaufenberg

@LizLaBalbo @OldilocksBC  So now medicine is wiser than God? and man has the last word? and there are No miracles from the Hand of God? If God can create something from nothing, then He cannot raise this child up according to her family's faith ? Jesus will nor perform miracles in the absence of faith and I see NO faith here. Maybe moving her to be near people who believe in the sancitity of life is just what her mother felt she had to do. We do NOT know what is going on in her heart and what her relationship with God is-perhaps she knows something we don't. God can restore blood flow to her brain and renew every organ in her body if it is His Will. I once visited a man in the hospital who was nearly sawed in half from a horrific accident. Every one of his organs had been hit by a chainsaw. He was declared brain dead due to cardiac arrest. He then suffered a severe infection throughout his body-no sign of life and no hope. People prayed-he lived-miraculously. You all came too late to tell me God doesn't work miracles-still today-and He always will.

Sigrid
Sigrid

@DeweySayenoff

Speculation is just that, speculation.  There have been cases where patients have been declared brain dead and have fully recovered. The medical field call these "miracles".  There have also been numerous patients in vegetative states that have low brain activity that can't respond so they are removed from "life support". This family has the right to have another doctor test their child and this hospital was refusing them this right along with the right to keep a feeding tube in her which would increase her chances of responding because it's very possible her brain swelling would decrease with increased blood flow and brain activity would be detected. It's harder to detect faint brain activity with swelling. My question is why deny them that chance. This was a tonsillectomy with removal of adenoids to improve conditions of sleep apnea. God forbid I was in this situation I would be fighting tooth and nail to get second, third and fourth opinions. I had a simple appendectomy as a teen. One doctor called for a second opinion. Both differed and I could have been sent home. So they called a third and fourth doctor. They both could not agree as well but instead of sending me home they concurred on the side of CAUTION. My appendix was about to rupture. Thank God for erring on the side of caution.

featherknife
featherknife

@sophieschoice @featherknife Yea. Absolutely, this child needs to be put to rest. The supreme court doesn't need her body to be blown up like a balloon 12 times a minute to decide on the legalities of this case, however. Current law allows the hospital to stop this, and the only reason they haven't is because of a decision by the judges temporary ruling. Ill advised, terrible ruling I might add.

Sigrid
Sigrid

@cdeva777 @iamrich77

This family is NOT asking that she be on a respirator forever. They are asking for her to be seen by one more doctor. They were asking almost a month ago to not remove her feeding tube. She is still on iv fluids. Her mother has already agreed to be held responsible should she go into cardiac arrest when they move her. Why? If she has already been declared brain dead. I think it is important to understand that there is the possibility of low brain function not being detected that they want to rule out. This hospital wouldn't be going through this if they hadn't been so quick to pull the plug.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9223408/Miracle-recovery-of-teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html?fb

BrianTheCobraSmith
BrianTheCobraSmith


@sophieschoice @BrianTheCobraSmith@sophieschoice @BrianTheCobraSmith  I am not related to this family and I'm not involved with the legal case, but I think this case is important for many reasons.  For one thing,  doctors are not infallible.  They aren't God. Doctors are the employees of the patients they serve. The patients are "boss" with respect to their own bodies. The patient (or in this case the patient's parents) have the final say so. Sure, doctors are paid to give professional opinion, and in the McMath case they've advised the family there is no hope for recovery, so pull the plug.), but the McMath family does not have to take that advice. Children's Hospital needs to get out of the way.  The family has made their decision and it is their decision to make.  Or at least it should be.



mauricerph
mauricerph

@JulieLuffman-Pitts@BrianTheCobraSmith

  That is the way hospitals differentiate between patients and people who are dead, but have not been removed from the hospital.  Bodies cannot be immediately removed from the hospital, so that has to be a way to differentiate between patients and people who are dead and waiting for the family to designate a funeral home to pick up the body.  It just does not usually take the family so long to come to grips with the reality and make arrangements for the body to be picked up.  All of this is just the way things are handled in hospitals in the USA.  I do not know about England, Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Mexico, Canada, or any of the other countries around the world.

  And yes, the coroner was notified of the death and the time that the patient was pronounced.

mcricci
mcricci

@JulieLuffman-Pitts @BrianTheCobraSmith  The hospital is not allowed to defend themselves yet, because it is not yet legal to do so. However, the family can and have been spreading misinformation. There are nurses who are taking care of the body as we speak out of courtesy to the family. It is my opinion that the family is being very uncourteous to the other families of patients currently in the hospital by creating a circus like atmosphere. Also, Stephen Thorpe was not declared brain dead, but instead was in a coma. JAHI MCMATH IS NOT IN A COMA. YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO CASES!

denise513
denise513

@dimensio @BrianTheCobraSmith I am curious - if she is "deceased" and her body "dead" was a time of death issued? Her heart is still beating on its own, correct?  I do not disagree that she is brain dead, and that she should be removed from machines- but I do not believe she should be called dead, or
"the dead body of" until her heart no longer beats and a time of death is issued.  Alive artifically, yes, but technically her body is still alive.

BrianTheCobraSmith
BrianTheCobraSmith

@dimensio @BrianTheCobraSmith Jahi McMath has been declared brain dead, which is a medical/legal definition of death, distinct from clinical death.  The medical definition known as "brain death" is a relatively recent creation. It was drafted to facilitate a supply of living donors for organ transplants. "Brain death" is not identical to true death.  

mauricerph
mauricerph

@BrianTheCobraSmith@featherknife


 Ah ha, but the physicians have issued a death certificate and the coroner has been notified.  This is a legality.  Jahi McMath is legally dead.

  It is the responsibility of the family to advise the hospital of which funeral home that they have made arrangements with to pick up the body of the deceased.  So that the hospital can legally release the body to the funeral home.  It is complicated.  Everybody has their has duties and responsibilities that are dictated by the laws adopted by the state of CA.  You can't just willy nilly do what you want.  Your choices are limited by the law.

These fringe groups, such as the Life Legal Defense Fund and The Terri Schiavo Life and Hope Network want to change the rules whenever they decide to.



mauricerph
mauricerph

@twinmom@BrianTheCobraSmith

  The nurses have to have an order from a physician to teach a patient or the patient's family how to provide self care, but the physicians cannot write orders to teach the family how to care for a corpse.  Also, the nurses are employed by the hospital and cannot refuse to follow orders to provide care,  Physicians are not employed by the hospital except for administrative duties.  The medical staff is a self governing body that admits patients and provides medical care to their patients through the hospital's employees.  It is all very complicated, but it works.

twinmom
twinmom

@BrianTheCobraSmith I will agree with you on one point - that the hospital should "get out of the way". The nurses and respiratory therapists who are tending to the corpse should just flat out refuse to do it any more. Part of a nurses' job is to teach the pt (if possible) and family self-care. So the nurses should teach the mother and uncle, and let's see grandma claims to be an RN, so it shouldn't be too difficult for them to learn to bathe the body, turn it periodically, suction, change the sheets, and clean up the diapers. The judge only ordered the hospital to not disconnect the ventilator and made it very clear that a medical professional could not be compelled to do anything that was felt to be unethical. So I hope that the hospital gets out of the way and let's this caring and loving family take over the care.

featherknife
featherknife

@BrianTheCobraSmith Doctors and R.N.'s, and Hospitals are licensed and  are responsible to the licensing entity. There is a scope of practice within which they must function. The idea that they work for the patient is sort of incomplete. The patient makes decisions for themselves, however, the medical staff cannot function outside of their scope of practice. That's why the hospital has put stipulations on the release of this patient. The hospital, and the family as well, I am sure, are well aware that these stipulations can't be met, since the girl is legally and medically considered deceased. 

sophieschoice
sophieschoice

@BrianTheCobraSmith  I think you should read the law. When a dead body is concerned, the hospital, the coroner, and the state laws concerning dead bodies takes precedent.

RoseleaLaufenberg
RoseleaLaufenberg

@elises @BrianTheCobraSmith doctors make mistakes every day-even a host of them-because of the way they have been trained. I know because i was mis-diagnosed myself-not the same situation as this-just to prove a point-if they can be wrong about one thing, they can be wrong about many other things-AND- doctors today are far from the dedicated professionals they used to be-#1-they are overwhelmed, overworked and over-magnified. #2-they are mere men and make MANY mistakes.

ThinkBeoreYouSpeak
ThinkBeoreYouSpeak

@mcricci @JulieLuffman-Pitts @BrianTheCobraSmith

  "Also, Stephen Thorpe was not declared brain dead, but instead was in a coma. JAHI MCMATH IS NOT IN A COMA. YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO CASES!" 


Not true.

" Four medical specialists declared 17-year-old Steven Thorpe brain dead after he suffered devastating injuries in a 2008 car accident, and prepared to harvest his organs.

 " 

http://thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/15244-brain-dead-brit-escapes-death-sentence-of-organ-harvesting-doctors



Read more: Terri Schiavo's Family Joins Fight To Save Braindead Jahi McMath | TIME.com http://nation.time.com/2014/01/02/terri-schiavos-family-urges-life-support-for-brain-dead-teen/#ixzz2pMDt9E1x

ThinkBeoreYouSpeak
ThinkBeoreYouSpeak

@mcricci @JulieLuffman-Pitts @BrianTheCobraSmith    "Also, Stephen Thorpe was not declared brain dead, but instead was in a coma. JAHI MCMATH IS NOT IN A COMA. YOU CANNOT COMPARE THE TWO CASES!" --


Not true.

Four medical specialists declared 17-year-old Steven Thorpe brain dead after he suffered devastating injuries in a 2008 car accident, and prepared to harvest his organs.

 " 

http://thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/15244-brain-dead-brit-escapes-death-sentence-of-organ-harvesting-doctors

elises
elises

 @BrianTheCobraSmith.. she is deceased!!!!!! There is no way in living hell she is alive. How many more medically trained staff, trained in brain death testing, do you need to tell you this!!!! 

featherknife
featherknife

@BrianTheCobraSmith @mcricci @JulieLuffman-Pitts Transfer to what? The New York facility that has been mentioned is an outpatient facility. It has no staff for such patients, nor is an approved facility for receiving patients after death. The hospital cannot release her to anyone not approved by the state to receive the deceased.

AnnieNomous
AnnieNomous

@denise513@dimensio@BrianTheCobraSmithFortunately for all concerned, the medical and legal communities have already decided that brain death is equivalent to cardiac death.  Just because you can sustain the heart, doesn't mean that the person is alive.  If so, people wouldn't donate their hearts to beat in another body.  That would mean that two people are alive in one body?

mcricci
mcricci

@denise513 @dimensio @BrianTheCobraSmith Her body is not breathing on it's own because that would require a functioning brain. Turn the machines off and no signal from the brain to the heart can be relayed because the brain is dead. 

elises
elises

@BrianTheCobraSmith.. If you have any medical knowledge you would know what brain death is actually death!!! The Hospital has done more that enough for this family. I am an adult and paediatric nurse and have dealt with brain death many many times and it is awful, but this is getting beyond a joke! 

dimensio
dimensio

@BrianTheCobraSmith Brain death is the complete cessation of all brain activity.  Upon brain death, a person is effectively dead, with absolutely no hope of ever regaining consciousness because the organ responsible for consciousness has failed entirely.


Ms. McMath is dead; that some organs of her body are being artificially sustained does not alter that reality.  Absolutely no possibility exists that McMath will ever regain consciousness, because the organ responsible for her consciousness is, as has been established by multiple neurologists (including a neurological team with no vested interest in her situation), gone.

mauricerph
mauricerph

@BrianTheCobraSmith@twinmom

@tomciesielka

When a body dies there are no legal rights to health care for that body.  It is buried, cremated, or otherwise disposed of according to the norms of society.

  The Life Legal Defense Foundation does not really educate or help people with their "rights".  Just fulminates dissension.  As in Brain Dead is not really dead although it is a legally recognized definition of death in a majority of the states in the USA.

sophieschoice
sophieschoice

@featherknife @BrianTheCobraSmith Great comment, thanks. Why are some people SO obtuse?

featherknife
featherknife

@BrianTheCobraSmith  I know that you speak out of monumental ignorance and should be cut a little slack here. There are a few points to be made however. Jahi is not only dead, medically and  legally dead,she is decomposing. This was stated in the last court ordered evaluation. Her brain has not had any oxygen since the 12th at least. Her brain is decomposing. She is way past dead. Brain death IS true death. Medically, legally, and practically. A dead body cannot be "starved". Impossible. Clinical death is considered to be the physical state before true death. You are dealing with semantics here. This girl is truly dead. Her brain is decomposing. There is absolutely zero chance of her recovering in any way. You don't get a "get out of death free" card with a brain death diagnosis. Paradoxically there is more chance of recovering from clinical death than from brain death. The instances of recovery from brain death are a result of inaccurate evaluation, different legal definitions in other countries, or a misunderstood diagnosis. The definiton of brain death was absolutely not drafted to feed the organ donor walmarts.  With The Uniform Determination of Death Act, which is now the law in almost all fifty states, both the legal and medical communities in the US use "brain death" as a legal definition of death, allowing a person to be declared legally dead even if life support equipment keeps the body's metabolic processes working.

BrianTheCobraSmith
BrianTheCobraSmith

@twinmom @BrianTheCobraSmith I'm not being insensitive, I'm just stating a fact.  The legal definition of "brain death" was created after organ transplantation became possible to facilitate the organ transplantation program.  This was needed because you cannot get living organs from a true corpse and you legally cannot kill a person defined as living to harvest their organs either, so they needed living bodies who were legally declared "dead".  I'm not against the organ transplant program if people understand it and consent to it, but it seems a lot of people do not understand the realities of it.

twinmom
twinmom

@BrianTheCobraSmith wrote "The medical definition known as "brain death" is a relatively recent creation. It was drafted to facilitate a supply of living donors for organ transplants

Since Adam and Eve, the brain has been the control center of all organs of the body. If the entire brain dies -  no electrical impulses, no blood flow, no response to noxious stimuli- the person dies. It is the same with all mammals. Destroy the brain completely and the organism is dead. Medical technology has been developed in the last fifty years which can keep the heart and lungs sustained when those organs would not otherwise function. The term brain death came about to describe the situation where the entire brain has ceased to function and therefore the organism is dead, but the heart and lungs may still seem to function because a machine is keeping them working.

To say this was done to facilitate organ donations is just insensitive and inhumane. I see why you have Cobra as a moniker.

BrianTheCobraSmith
BrianTheCobraSmith

@sophieschoice @BrianTheCobraSmith @SuzannaLytle That would be a convincing argument, except for the fact that "brain dead" is not equal to decapitation.  Brain death means there are no detectable brain waves.  There have been cases of persons who were declared brain dead, who had no detectible brain waves, who later recovered, although this is very rare.  

sophieschoice
sophieschoice

@BrianTheCobraSmith @SuzannaLytle I posted this earlier. Brain death is equal to decapitation. A person without a head cannot survive! Machines are keeping her remains alive for the time being, but in time, her body will decompose just like her brain.

mcricci
mcricci

@BrianTheCobraSmith The body of Jahi Mcmath can not supply any organs for transplant because too much time has passed. 

BrianTheCobraSmith
BrianTheCobraSmith

@SuzannaLytle @BrianTheCobraSmith   The coroner needing to sign off on a potential transfer move bears no relevance to Jahi's currently biologically living condition.  That's simply a made up rule.  Although, you do bring up a good point regarding people typically not being able to go more than 3 weeks without food.  Sadly, it seems if they cannot pull the plug on this child, they are determined to starve this poor girl into extinction, because Children's Hospital is refusing to provide Jahi with nutrition, and they are taking steps to actively block her transfer to facility which would provide Jahi with nutrition.  The moral thing for Children's Hospital to do at this point would be to provide Jahi with nutrition and cooperate with her family's efforts to move her.  



SuzannaLytle
SuzannaLytle

@BrianTheCobraSmith  if brain death is not identical of true death why does a coroner have to sign off on her body "should" she be moved. depending on how long they attempted resuscitation it only takes 3 minutes for permanent brain damage to occur. the rule of three's 3 minutes without oxygen 3 hours without shelter in severe weather 3 days without water and 3 weeks without food. if she hasn't been hooked up intravenously for fluids she has already passed the 3 days without water. she hasn't had a feeding tube so she has gone more than 3 weeks without food and we don't know how long she went without oxygen initially.  if she was alive those first two could have killed her already. the truth of t he matter is  The brain stem controls our breathing, our heart rate, and our blood pressure and body temperature. Brain cells cannot regrow or be replaced. Unlike coma, brain death is irreversible. If the ventilator is not stopped, because the brain has already died she will progress to kidney, liver and then cardiac failure over a period of hours to days.

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