Days Are Numbered for New York City’s Horse-Drawn Carriages

Incoming mayor says 'it's over' for the iconic rides

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Tourists in New York City are scrambling to take what may be the last of the iconic horse-drawn carriage rides through Central Park before the incoming mayor plans to ban the practice.

The rides have long been the target of animal rights activists who say the horses are mistreated, and Mayor-elect Bill de Blasio, who takes office Wednesday, said Monday that he will follow up on a campaign promise and shut the carriages down.

“It’s over,” he said at a news conference, the New York Daily News reports.

The carriages have been assailed by an array of critics, ranging from Miley Cyrus and Alec Baldwin to both leading candidates for mayor.

But horse-drawn carriage supporters have pushed back, arguing that the horses are well-cared for — including nine-hour maximum work days — and that the the alternative may be grim. The Daily News reported in October that if funds for the horses’ retirement are not raised, the roughly 200 animals could face slaughter.

[New York Daily News]

67 comments
AndreaSomers
AndreaSomers

Just keep it the same, it's good because it creates jobs for people to take care of horses.

RoniBellSylvester
RoniBellSylvester

Whose property are the equine use opposers talking about? Who owns the horses, carriages and property? Who amongst said opposers own horses - or pay for the board/room/veterinarian of a horse?  The public deserves to know whose property the opposers are using in their promotions.

If you own a horse, what do you do with it when it reaches a point where the most humane thing to do is put it down; what do you do instead?

If it's about those in want of the real-estate, perhaps they should consider benevolence over greed, and provide another space for the horses/carriages - where they may continue providing a beautiful, enjoyable outdoor experience for thousands...in a city.  

As a pro-choicer, I believe people have the right as to choose whether or not to take a ride in a Hansom cab.   I believe Joseph Hansom's 1834 provision of what's now become a lovely tradition, legacy and an integral part of New York's custom and culture deserves protection from humans who believe they know horse speak when they've yet to learn human speak.


horselover
horselover

Mayor 


I say BE A HERO, KEEP THE HORSE BUGGIES and be STRICTER against any harm to them on behalf of a human, I saw the way that man tugged on the horses reins and caused the horse to tumble , that poor horse, PUNISH BY LAW the HUMAN for the actions that causes abuse !!  Be a HERO and stop poor treatment to animals. Declare HORSES as PETS and THERAPEUTIC for humans,, not abuse or meat, BE a HERO for the VOICELESS. Because truly what goes around comes around, have a HEART and DO something GOOD !! THANK YOU


horselover
horselover

WHY CANT WE END KILLING HORSES !!!

This is a burden on my heart every day the way they are treated, they should be treated very well as they are wonderful animals, 

Stop the slaughtering and exporting of these FINE animals that offer therapy to many !!!!

To KNOW a HORSE is to PROTECT and LOVE THEM ALL !!!!!

thanks Karen in south florida

CaitlinCanfield
CaitlinCanfield

"No horses will die," is a lie. What else do you suggest the owners do? The owners will not send them to slaughter. They will keep the ones they can afford -- if they can afford any since their livelihood was just ripped away and horses are ungodly expensive to care for -- and try to sell the others. But you know how well that's going to work? Not very well at all. There are already tons of unwanted horses going through auction houses every year and the vast majority of those horses are bought by killbuyers. So no, the owners aren't sending these horses to slaughter. They're sending them to auction because you've taken away their income and they can't afford to feed the animals anymore. So yes, the ban is a death sentence to these horses. It's killing horses who were previously cared for like royalty, better than most human beings are taken care of.

ktd100
ktd100

Again, NO HORSES WILL DIE from the ban, unless the current owners send them to slaughterhouses for the money they will get.

DavidMorganHardingham
DavidMorganHardingham

Removing the horse from NYC is like taking the Trolly out of San Frasco which is just wrong as it would take the charm out of both.

carriage horses.are also better treated then farm or public riding horses as proven by there disposition on the city streets and the place those horse will if removed is the glue factory.

As they tend to be older and unwanted as there are so many unwanted horses in the system already.and many are sent to Canada for slaughter


davo1958
davo1958

No mention of banning NYC Mounted Police. Police horses are subject to even more danger and could face the same problems of abuse as carriage horses. Only a hypocrite would ban carriage horses and not Police horses.

KimberlyAnne
KimberlyAnne

These horses could be sent to Amish families or other cities that would like this attraction, kept in better conditions, if even that is the case.  DON"T LET THEM KILL THEM!


KimberlyDavias
KimberlyDavias

That is a tough situation. The people against the carriage rides say that the horses are mistreated. But the people who are in favor of the carriage rides say that if the horses aren't kept for the carriage rides, that their fate could be grim. That is horrible if that would happen! I really don't think these helpless creatures should be forced to pull a heavy carriage with heavy ass people in it around every day. But if it is true that these beautiful creatures could be abused or something otherwise, that is an unthinkable situation! I am stumped. It is terrible how people treat poor, innocent animals these days. Rotten m*th*# fu*k#rs that would harm any innocent creature definitely shouldn't have a pet for one thing. And if someone is guilty of abusing and animal should be abused themselves!!!!!!

Roxys
Roxys

So what? Off to the glue factory then?


Why shut it down, why not monitor for abuse more heavily.

ktd100
ktd100

I must add a voice of reason to these comments.  Animal rights groups have documented many abuses of horses throughout the last decade.  Horses have been struck by cars, collapsed in the heat, and yes, died from these accidents.  There is very little regulation of the horse-drawn carriage industry by the police, animal welfare, or anyone else.


The Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages has found a home for every horse that is retired by the end to the practice, if the owners choose to give the horse to the volunteer home.  Any horses that are slaughtered will be for the monetary benefit of the current owner.  No horses need to die because of this ban.


I am sorry for those who will lose their jobs.  But we must put morality above economics.  If we decide that it is morally wrong to do something, we must not do it, regardless of the loss of jobs.  Even those who do not agree that horse-drawn carriages are harmful to the horses would agree to this point, I think.  Therefore, the argument should center on this question, and not on the matter of lost jobs.  As times change, people lose jobs, and gain jobs when new ones are created.  And times are changing.  In this case, it is for the greater good.


As times change, we keep the good traditions, and do away with those we no longer want to practice, like killing the scapegoat (yes, our ancestors really used to kill a goat every year, which they thought would absolve them of past sins).  We will keep the traditions that do no harm, and make new good ones, too.  A walk in the park, perhaps!

Lucystar
Lucystar

I just love all the people on here whining about the "iconic" nature of the carriages.  You all must have been screaming when the "iconic" slaves and pickanninnies were taken off the plantation, making the Old South lose it's charm for the tourists.  How dare that "socialist" Abraham Lincoln tell people what do to with their property! Maybe you want to get rid of the existing regulations on the horses, too?  Don't they cramp your style?


Moving the horses inside the park only, or some other solution, might be worth a look.  Denial that the horses are in fact suffering, and squawkig about the "freedom" of someone to make money off of the suffering of an animal is no solution and makes you all look like the bunch of creeps that you are.

drevulphd
drevulphd

Here we go again, another power hungry mayor, walking around like a Nazi shoving things down our throats, not saying lets do this but "Its over" just like Bloomberg with his soda ban and cigarette ban and every other ban. These guys need to realize that they are  elected officials not Kings of New York. I guarantee you that the majority of New Yorkers would be for the horses if they are guaranteed their well being. This is part of  New York, so many cities have horse drawn carriages, these horses will be slaughtered if they don't work. . May end up on the Mayors dinner plate!

HorseSense
HorseSense

If Mayor-elect de Blasio has the power to eliminate the carriage horses (and that is exactly what his plan will do - send hundreds of innocent animals to slaughter),  why can't he instead make some changes to save this iconic New York City trade? Why can't he mandate that the horses live in the park and work in the park?  That  would eliminate the hazards of mid-town crossings to get back and forth to their stables.  Surely a small, unused corner of the park could be found to build a stable and house the horses.   If that isn't feasible, move their stables as close to the park as possible!  It seems that most of the hazards are encountered when the horses are going back and forth to the park.  I am a horse person and I believe a working, well cared for horse is better off than a dead or neglected one.  And by the way, a bill requiring that the owner sell the horse only to a particular home, that it will not be used again in the carriage trade, that it will only be kept as a pet, etc. etc. etc, is ABSOLUTELY USELESS!  These fictional homes exist only in the imagination of people who know nothing about horses and who refuse to accept reality.  You cannot put the economic burden of a retired horse on a working class person.  Horses are too expensive to keep, costing at a minimum hundreds or even thousands of dollars per month for board, feed, farrier and vet bills.  Any retirement plan for the horses has to be funded by the entity that is putting them out of work - the great City of New York.


Read more: Bill De Blasio: Horse Drawn Carriages Are Finished in New York City | TIME.com http://nation.time.com/2013/12/30/days-are-numbered-for-new-york-citys-horse-drawn-carriages/#ixzz2p3nkf2X1

HorseSense
HorseSense

If Mayor-elect de Blasio has the power to eliminate the carriage horses (and that is exactly what his plan will do - send hundreds of innocent animals to slaughter),  why can't he instead make some changes to save this iconic New York City trade? Why can't he mandate that the horses live in the park and work in the park?  That  would eliminate the hazards of mid-town crossings to get back and forth to their stables.  Surely a small, unused corner of the park could be found to build a stable and house the horses.   If that isn't feasible, move their stables as close to the park as possible!  It seems that most of the hazards are encountered when the horses are going back and forth to the park.  I am a horse person and I believe a working, well cared for horse is better off than a dead or neglected one.

nycresident
nycresident

Bill De Blasio is as ignorant as they get. As a city, haven't we been trying to "go green"? Adding these cars to the scene, adding this POLLUTION, great for the future of nyc, really, good thinking De Blasio. Along with the families that he will be putting into extreme shock. I am the wife of a nyc horse driver and that horse is a pet to my children. We often take trips over to our stable to visit her and feed her carrots. Not to mention the stress you put on our family that my husband will be losing his job and will not be able to now support our family and five children, whom our oldest are in college and youngest in elementary. Thanks Bill De Blasio, you ignorant nothing, learn to think before speaking your actions of the new year are really about to turn this city and many, many families upside down.

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

How can this be?  How can one man have the power to put several hundred people out of business?  I don't understand?  Is this not the United States of America?  Home of the brave and land of the free?  If so, please tell me how one "socialist" can take kill hundreds of small businesses who have done NOTHING wrong?  Isn't this why we dropped tea in the Boston Harbor?  Why so many people gave their lives to fight against the British in the Revolutionary war so that we could have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?  


Why is it that this man can devastate the lives of hundreds of people, men, women, children, immigrants, generations of immigrants (who made this city great) because of politics? If these horses were so abused and mistreated, where is the proof in this highly regulated industry?  Where are all the piles upon piles of violations that show the horses are being mistreated? That's right, there isn't any.   The horses are fine.  They live well and do what they've been bred to do.  Their owners share a bond with them and treat them well.


Please tell me how this can happen in my country?  It is an abomination.  It is a terrible day when money, politics, special interests, radicals and extremists give more rights to animals than they do to people.  These people really don't care about the animals though, it's all about the cause, not the people and what happens to them, not the animals and what will happen to them, but their precious, stupid cause.  Another sad day in America.....

ktd100
ktd100

@horselover I agree with you about the ending of killing horses, but how do you suggest we should go about doing it?  That's where the hard part is.

ktd100
ktd100

@CaitlinCanfield As I have already written - 

The ASPCA and Coalition to Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages have GUARANTEED homes for all the carriage horses.  This is simply a fact.  They have found volunteers who care about horses and care about ending this cruel practice who will take the horses and care for them for life.


There you are.  There's the answer to that question.  Process it in your brain, if you can.  Accept it, for it is the truth.

erkube
erkube

@ktd100You're naive.  Thousands of horses are slaughtered every year.  It's an epidemic.  Horse sanctuaries are also closing.  It will cost almost $500,000 to keep these horses for the next few years.  What about the horses on the waiting lists?  They'll be bumped in favor of the New York horses and they'll get slaughtered instead. 

CaitlinCanfield
CaitlinCanfield

@ktd100 Did you notice that a large number of those pictures were not even taken in the United States? Misinformation is not a good way to go.

erkube
erkube

@ktd100 How about the ASPCA vet who got suspended for giving a false report on one of the horses?  And how about the fact that the ASPCA head is also a member of NYCLASS, or let's call it what it really is: NYUPPERCLASS.

erkube
erkube

@davo1958 He knows he can't mess with the NYPD.  This is all about real estate, not the horses.  The stables will now go to the highest bidder.  The guy who heads up the organization that mobilized for the ban and has de Blassio in his pocket is a real estate guy who owns dozens of parking garages around the city.  That's what's really going on  here.

otterbird
otterbird

@KimberlyAnne Many of the horses actually come FROM Amish farms, after they are too old to continue the very hard workload they face as a farm horse.  Being a carriage horse is a much easier gig than working as a farm horse.

davo1958
davo1958

@KimberlyAnne My guess is that you have never been around the Amish, they tend to be kind of rough on horses, they tend to treat horses a little more harshly than most horse owners.

ktd100
ktd100

@KimberlyDavias The problem is much bigger than people think.  160,000 horses were sent to slaughterhouses last year alone.

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@Roxys these RARA's say they have places to take these horses, the problem is that they will be displacing several hundred other horses that are in desperate need of rescue and are facing slaughter NOW!  It makes no sense to put these horses into a system when they are already well-taken care of to begin with.  The ASPCA who regulates them have not found any violations, yet they join with those who want the ban.


Despite the lies from the anti's, they are already heavily regulated and abuse is not an issue.  Accidents, can and do happen, but to ban an industry that has an impeccable record because a small but vocal and well-funded minority scream abuse is just plain wrong and totally un-American.

erkube
erkube

@ktd100 This is not true.  NYC carriage horses are the most regulated in the country.  There's a tradition of animals being bred to work.  These animals are well-cared for and not suffering.  How come you're not trying to ban NYC police horses?  Maybe de Blasio won't mess with NYPD, but he's happy to do the bidding of the real estate guys who want the property the stables sit on and who gave him generous donations.

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 So who decides using horses to do what they were bred to do is morally wrong?  The only ones who agree that using animals are the same fanatics that believe any animals use is morally wrong.  These people are doing nothing wrong.  Sure accidents can and do happen, be it pedestrian, bicycle or car, should we ban these too? 


Also, these horses are PROPERTY and their owners/drivers are breaking NO laws.  I sure hope NYC gets their butts sued off in court.  This is totally unconstitutional.


As for the "many abuses" documented by the AR groups, if this is so, why doesn't the ASPCA enforce these alleged abuses?  Oh that's rights, because they don't exist.  The AR groups are lying through their teeth because they feel it is morally wrong to use an animal in any way, shape or form.  

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@Lucystar To the normal, average person we are able to make the distinction between a human "slave" and a working animal.  How dare you make such a hideous comparison.


Abraham Lincoln was not a socialist, he was a Republican and he really didn't care about black people.  He did believe that human slavery is wrong but using an animal to do the work it was bred for is complete different.  This is the problem with all you RARA's, you want to "humanize" ALL animals.  They are animals who are happy doing what they are bred to do, whose needs are met and they share a bond with their owners that you could never possibly understand.

Lucystar
Lucystar

@LetFreedomRing You are so full of denial and ego it is ridiculous.  You are the one who is full of a "cause". The horses are absolutely not "fine", you just want to go on pretending that they are.  

AlanRochette
AlanRochette

@ktd100@CaitlinCanfield
The notion that Guaranteed Homes is being offered by the ASPCA and Ban Horse-Drawn Carriages quite simply means (if this is really true) that a few other hundred horses who are not so "Famous", who may have had a chance of adoption, will never have that option.

So, quite simply, taking horses away from very well cared for stables & lives, and pushing aside other more needy horses to be able to say "I Saved a NYC carriage Horse" simply is more "Abuse" than any other thing I can think of.
Or is the term "Inhumane", or "Cruel" more applicable?

Now, there is a question to ponder...

ktd100
ktd100

@erkube Thousands of horses are indeed slaughtered every year.  We must focus on preventing these horses that we are unable to care for from being born.  That means that fewer horses must be bred for racing, then dumped when they don't perform because they aren't fast enough to begin with, get too old to win, or are injured in this dangerous "sport."  This is where those thousands come from.  The carriage horses are just a small percentage of this number, and guess what - after we stop this practice, there won't be any more carriage horses to worry about placing.  It's a one-time only deal.  Address the REAL problem of unwanted horses. 

ktd100
ktd100

@CaitlinCanfield @ktd100 That's not true - they were all documented as being in NYC, except two that were in New Jersey and Westchester, NY.  I just checked myself.  Why are you writing things that aren't true?  Do you have another agenda?  Maybe you are a carriage driver - many of them write under assumed names on the internet to try to influence people toward their cause.

ktd100
ktd100

@erkube @ktd100 What is upperclass about wanting horses not to suffer?  It applies to anyone, rich or poor, who cares about horses.


Please provide documentation for your assertion.  

ktd100
ktd100

@LetFreedomRing @ktd100 Just because we bred horses to pull carriages doesn't mean they should pull carriages.  What kind of logic is that?  Slaveowners forced their slaves to produce children - they "bred" them - but that doesn't mean the resulting child was meant to do hard labor.  Yes, I am comparing humans to horses.  Horses, like we humans, feel.


If a horse in the wild had an accident like hurting herself running, or eating poison plants, that would be sad, but it would be an accident that happened while the horse was living his horse life, just as a bicycle accident happens while we humans are going about our day doing human things.  A horse being forced to do something against his nature for the entertainment of humans, is not just an accident, it's abuse.


Technically, these horses are considered property.  Humans have also been considered the property of other humans.  Slaves, wives, children.  Slaveowners were breaking no laws when they beat their slaves.  Then, thankfully, we changed the laws.  It was hard, but I am so glad my ancestors had the courage to see that it was done, and I am now trying to make the changes in society I think are right.


You know who else said that "they" were being unconstitutional?  Robert E Lee.  You know what happened next.


As for your last paragraph, that is a very complicated question, and I am not saying that as a cop-out.  It is very hard to prove abuse:  someone must be there to take a picture, witnesses willing to wait around and speak out must be gathered, for example.  People have indeed tried to take action against horse-abusing carriage drivers, and there have been some slap-on-the wrist punishments doled out, like a weeks' suspension, if I am remembering right.  I am not an expert on this issue.  There might be laws on the books to protect horses (how many I'm not sure), but in terms of practical enforcement, it is a huge issue.  A horse cannot call 911 or ask for help, after all.  Have you ever tried to ask a NYC cop to help an animal?  They look at you like you're crazy.  There are many pictures of drivers hitting horses, making them work in the extreme heat, etc.


Do you really believe that in any industry abuses don't exist?  The fact that there are very few instances on the books of drivers being called out for breaking the rules doesn't mean that everything's so wonderful and happy that no rules are ever broken!  It just means that in this industry, it is very hard to make sure the rules are followed, which is bad news for the horses. 

ktd100
ktd100

@LetFreedomRing @Lucystar How is it hideous to compare a human to an animal?  We are both sentient creatures that have feelings, wants and needs.  Remember, what is "normal" depends on where you are.  Slavery was considered very normal in the South at that time.  


I'm sorry, but Southern slaveowners made that same argument:  that slaves were meant to be slaves, that they were happy, needed to be taken care of by their "masters," etc.  It's true that horses were bred by humans to pull things, that just means we meant them to labor for us, not that they "were meant" to do so in any objective way. 

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@Lucystar @LetFreedomRing I have seen them in person.  I know a happy horse when I see one.  I've raised and trained them for years.  I don't pretend nothing.  You and the anti's are the ones who just want to see them gone to make you feel better and feel like you did a good job without taking in account the people who love their horses, love their business and love their customers.  You don't know these people or their horses all you guys care about is winning your cause at all costs.  What qualifies you say they are abused?  You look at the garbage and lies spread by NYCLASS?  Look at the few incidences over the years?  You don't personally feed, brush, harness, unharness, feed, water and take care of these horses day in and day out to know they truly are happy and well-cared for.   You have on blinders and are brainwashed by the emotionally manipulative lies spread by the do-gooders!

ktd100
ktd100

@AlanRochette @ktd100 @CaitlinCanfield As many have pointed out, thousands of horses from this country are slaughtered every year.  Over 160,000 were last year (http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/horse_slaughter/facts/facts_horse_slaughter.html).  The thing to do to stop it is examine where these thousands of horses are coming from, and the answer is from rodeos, race horse breeding, and irresponsible individual horse owners, primarily.  That is the source of the problem, a huge problem.  This is the issue to address if you are concerned about horse slaughter.


So, when you imply that these 200 or so horses are going to make a meaningful difference in that number of 160,000 slaughtered every year, that is simply mind-boggling.  It's a drop of water in a barrel.  In my opinion, it's a diversionary tactic to distract people from the issue of whether or not horse-drawn carriages should exist.


Ironically, the horse-drawn carriage industry already sends their old overworked horses to the slaughter.  So when this practiced is stopped, that won't happen, and fewer horses will die.  So if horse-drawn carriages all across the country were banned, it would actually SAVE thousands of horses from being slaughtered every year.


So, that's the answer to your ponderance.  The real question should be, how are we going to get people to stop irresponsibly breeding thousands of horses they can't provide for?

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 @LetFreedomRing Truth hurts.  You live in your own little world and since you've already spewed all the lies you can remember reading from the anti groups, you have nothing  to refute my knowledge and expertise in animal husbandry and behavior.  


That's the problem with most of the RARA's, they really don't know about animals and are quick to spread lies, misconceptions and things taken out of context because they see a few photos of sad looking animals and their emotions take over.  They want to put a voice to those poor animals in the photos and want to believe they can make a difference.  And while wanting to make a difference is admirable, taking a stand with a knee-jerk reaction to photo without knowing a true context is very misguided.   They just care about their cause and not the good people they hurt and being a voice for animals that don't need their voice.


And right now the ASPCA is playing its heart wrenching commercial on TV begging for your donation.  They fail to mention having to pay out $9.3 million to avoid Federal Racketeering charges for paying a witness to testify in an alleged animal abuse case.  

ktd100
ktd100

@LetFreedomRing @ktd100 You are just trying to insult me and lashing out in desperation, so I will simply say, goodbye and I wish you the best, and I genuinely wish the best for the horses too.

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 @LetFreedomRing The Boston Tea Party was about freedom and allowing people to do their own thing instead of having a small group of people dictating what they can and can't do.  Sounds like the new communist Mayor.  Letting a small group of radicals pay for his campaign so he will keep his promise to them to ban the horses.  RARAs today are those with unsound logic.  Total Animal Liberation. 


But if you want to use your term for what is sound and what is not, then you must understand animal behavior and not rely on your emotion and perception by using the failed comparison and analogy that they are equal to human slaves because we own and breed them for our own purposes.  Who are you to say they are not happy?  Are you an experienced animal breeder, owner, trainer?  Do you know when a horse is truly happy?  Or do you only believe that they can be truly happy being free from man's hand?  If it is the later, then you and your RARA friends are using unsound logic.


Last time I checked animals are not longing to go to college and better themselves to become better animals.  They do not want better for their children.  Granted they have feelings, but they are driven by their inherit instincts that drives their behaviors and feeling for security.  Their needs are simple and what makes them happy is doing what they were bred to do.


Face it, it's not really about the horses, but just the cause, once you've won this cause, what's next, the Amish?  The police horses? Ban dogs and cats?  It won't stop here, the carriage horses were just an easy target.

ktd100
ktd100

@LetFreedomRing @ktd100 You bring up many, many points in your response and it is hard to address them all without writing a full essay.  I will do my best to respond.


You talk in another post about the original Boston Tea Party, and what they fought for.  But what were they if not radicals?  They were doing something extremely radical, trying to take on the powers that be and change the way people think about government.  Yet you label animal rights believers as radicals as if it's intrinsically negative.  Yes, I believe our society needs to radically change the way we treat animals.  We think of them as "less than" we are, but actually the part of the brain (the amygdala) that processes feelings and pain is virtually identical in both our species.  I don't think animals are equal to us in all ways (though I'm not sure that the picture you paint will all of them in jail for rape is very accurate either) but they can feel pain the same way we do.  Just as we care about granting rights to other humans to prevent them from suffering, we should try to prevent animals from suffering at human hands.  Keep in mind, we are animals, and all animal species are different.  When you say, "I know animal behavior," this is virtually meaningless.  


Just because some dogs eat their own poop doesn't mean we should just do whatever we want to them, thinking, "they eat their own poop, they are disgusting, so that justifies me in whatever I want to do."


Be careful when using name-calling.  Name-calling never advances your logical case.  Words like "ludicrous" are a good example.  And there is no such thing as "normal" logic, only sound and unsound logic.  I am trying to convince you that my logic is sound, and not make you feel ashamed or stupid by calling you names, and I'd appreciate the same consideration.  "Normal" only means what most people are doing, and what people consider normal is constantly changing depending on the time and place.


As a last note, I'd like to tell you that I have taken part in demonstrations, and we have always been very careful not to distress the horses by chanting loudly around them.  I can't speak for everyone, but in my experience, demonstrators are there because we genuinely care about the horses, and we either hold up signs silently while around them, or protest vocally in another area.


I am sorry that you say you can "never be convinced" that the horses should not be in the city.  I can only hope someone else reading this is open to new ideas.

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 @LetFreedomRing I don't disagree that there may be a few bad drivers or a few bad situations, but it is not the norm.  Why punish all those who are doing the right thing and enjoy and LOVE what they do?


I don't buy your comparison between a working horse and a human slave.  I know far too many RARAs (Radical Animal Rights Advocates) who's ideology and views about animals as being equals is so ludicrous.  What type of logic is this? It's NORMAL logic, not some warped view that animals think, take responsibility, are cognitive about their looks and well-being as a human is.  Animals lack these abilities. If you want to give animals equal rights, they'd all be in jail because they KILL other animals, they would rob stores, they would rape each other. They don't have the ability to know right from wrong, obey laws and act responsibly. Nope sorry no failed logic on my part.  I know animal behavior and it is quite different from humans.  They do not deserve human rights but are entitled to humane treatment, of which the carriage horses receive plenty of.


I have dogs, love them, but they are dogs and need to be treated, trained and enjoyed as a dog.  They are not my furbabies or furkids.  They bark, they bite, they eat their own poop.  A dog is a dog, a horse is horse.  And trust me, horses are just as happy doing their job, having a routine, getting good food, vet care and housing.  They are secure and a secure animal is a happy animal.  These horses are DOMESTICATED they are bred to depend on people and work for them.


So much of the abuse I see is coming from the RARAs themselves who stand on the street screaming and yelling at the horses, waving posters at them and PURPOSELY trying to spook them.


Sorry you will NEVER convince me these animals are being harmed or abused.  Day in and day out they work and hardly ever an incident.  They bring joy to thousands of people who have never met a horse before.  They have just as much right to be in the city as a dog or a cat.  


If these horses don't belong in the city, what about the police horses?

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 @LetFreedomRing @Lucystar I never said they are unhappy, stop spinning my words.  The word I used was stressed.  And yes, most animals in the wild are subject to a higher level of stress.  They are constantly on the look out for food.  They are subject injury/illness where they do not receive any vet care.  They often die from starvation, illness, injury and predation from other animals. Nature is not kind and these animals may suffer, so while I do not personally observe them, I cannot say they are happy or unhappy.  Please read Allan's reply to this question about how wild horses live and you decide how happy they are.


Who am I to say what a horse's purpose is?  Well, if I carefully plan a breeding, look at my pedigrees/bloodline and want to breed for a specific purpose, well then yes, I am the one to say.  Humans have bred animals for centuries to serve a purpose.  Domesticated horses are bred for many different purposes.  There are horses bred for racing, there are horses bred for cutting cattle, there are horses bred for hunting/jumping and *newsflash* there are some bred for pulling and working carts.  Prior to the invention of the motor car, horses were bred as our sole means of transportation.  But because I have *extensive* knowledge  and hands on experience with horses, animal husbandry and breeding, I feel I have more to say on the subject and know more of the behavior and purpose of the horse than some RARA giving an emotional response based of those horrible, animal porn photos/videos she's been shown.   Someone putting human feelings/emotions on the horses instead of truly understand what makes horses tick.  Whether that makes me right or wrong, ask your auto mechanic to do brain surgery on you.   

ktd100
ktd100

@LetFreedomRing @ktd100 @Lucystar So...wild horses are unhappy, while only the horses that we breed and use for our own purposes are content and happy?  Think about what you are saying.


Who are you to say what a "horse's purpose" is?  All you know is what YOUR purpose for them is.  Also, I don't believe you when you say only you and others that agree with you know what makes them happy or what they are feeling.  Basically you are saying anyone who disagrees with you is wrong, because you have a horse, so you know everything there is to know about them.  Sometimes we don't even know what our own family members are thinking and feeling.  And you can't talk to your horse.


I am not sure you are capable of looking at this issue from a different point of view, you have too much invested in your need to feel good about your lifestyle; you have pretty much made that clear.  I wish you the best, however, and I am glad that you take good care of the horses you have. 

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 @LetFreedomRing @Lucystar No they did not make the same argument you conveniently like to change that to fit your logic.  


I love the use of the word sentient.  I hear it time and time again. Meant to evoke an emotion so that you may manipulate the reader to put human feelings on an animal.  Just because animals have the ability to feel, doesn't mean they are our equals nor do they deserve the same rights as humans.  


Domesticated animals have been bred, raised and trained for specific purposes for centuries.  They depend on humans to care for them and keep them safe during the execution of those purposes.  They form a bond and trust that most non-animal people can't possibly understand.  They don't have a lot of stress in their lives because they know their routine, they receive good food, have a secure place to sleep and receive proper vet care.  


Animals in the wild are much more stressed because they have to go searching for food.  Sometimes they go hungry.  If they get sick or injured, often they die an early and painful death or they are constantly on the look out for predators that want to kill them and again die a very painful death.  Nature is not kind or easy, but domesticated, working horses, know their routines, enjoy their work and have a great life.  It's sad that in your quest to "free" and "liberate" animals that you have absolutely NO idea or actual experience in animal husbandry to know their true behavior and what truly makes them happy.  A horse's purpose is not just running free and being a horse.  Being a horse is also being a working horse. That is some of the true purpose of being a domestic horse.

LetFreedomRing
LetFreedomRing

@ktd100 @LetFreedomRing @Lucystar Absolutely blinders for horses, why? It keeps them calmer, more relaxed and their stress level low.  It helps them to be "happier" if you will this is some how a bad thing?  Another need met for the horses!


As for bits, shows how much you know.  Many bits are fitting with a "roller or rollers" inside so that the horses can play with them if they feel the need to.  It's provides an outlet for them and helps them to relax, yet another way to meet their need.  And there are different types of bits too.  Some are made of softer metal, some have rubber over the mouth and other have metals that keeps the mouth moist while wearing it.  Again, more needs of the horse met.  


The horse shoes, some containing pads, are to help the horses too, more needs met.  


Poop bags, well you know, let me let you in on a little secret, this is why animals are not equal to humans.  They just don't have self-awareness.  They don't think about the poop and it certainly doesn't cause them embarrassment!  They simply don't think about it.  


Bits, reins, bridles, these are how we communicate with our horses. This is what *they* understand.  Again, in your failed belief that horses and animals are equal to humans, if they were, we could just teach them our language and tell them where to go and how fast to get there, but *newsflash* they are horses and this is how we communicate with them.  Horse people know this but to the bleeding heart, uninformed, they think it's abuse and cruel.  

ktd100
ktd100

@LetFreedomRing @Lucystar I just have to point this out...you use the "blinders" metaphor...these horses literally have on blinders.  Oh, I know this is supposed to "help" them because they can only see what's right in front of them.  Basically, it's restricting their vision, just as everything else about them is restricted.  


To see these horses, to really look at them, look at the hard uncomfortable metal bits in their mouths that they constantly try to push around, the reins, the metal horse shoes, the poop bags tied to their tails, the carriages they are attached to...I think most people are so used to it that they don't really see it for what it is.


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