Toy Guns, Deadly Consequences

The shooting death of a 13-year-old carrying an air gun is the latest example of a police mistake turning deadly

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Handout / Reuters

Andy Lopez Cruz is shown in this undated family photo released to Reuters on Oct. 24, 2013.

Andy Lopez was walking to his friend’s house in Santa Rosa, Calif. on Oct. 22 when two Sonoma County deputies spotted the 13-year-old boy in a blue hoodie carrying what they thought was an AK-47 assault rifle. Stopping the police car, the deputies chirped their siren and demanded that he drop the gun. Still holding it, Lopez started to turn around. A deputy, believing he was in danger, fired several rounds. Lopez was shot seven times and died on the scene. What the officers took for an assault rifle turned out to have been an airsoft gun that fires plastic projectiles.

Santa Rosa has been rocked by the event, with hundreds marching on Wednesday to protest the shooting of “an innocent young boy,” as one sign read. The deputies, who have not been named, are on leave while the incident is investigated, and the FBI announced on Saturday that they’re conducting an independent investigation of the incident.

The shooting is the latest in a long line of incidents of police shooting — and sometimes killing — people  whom they have mistakenly thought to be armed with a real firearm. Last year, police fatally shot a Texas eighth-grader who was carrying a pellet gun that resembled a black Glock. The year before, Miami police shot and killed a 57-year old man who had a realistic replica gun after getting 911 calls about the ostensible weapon. “This is not the first time,” says Karen Caves, spokeswoman for a California state senator who has pushed stricter regulations on imitation firearms. “It happens every year.”

The Department of Justice says the federal government doesn’t keep ongoing statistics on the trend, but in a 1990 paper funded by the Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. police reported that they had used or threatened to use force “in a confrontation where an imitation gun had been mistaken for a real firearm” at a rate of about 200 incidents per year. The paper’s authors suggested that this number was “significantly underreported.”  A series of toy gun-related deaths in the late 80s helped pass a federal amendment, sponsored by Republican Sen. Bob Dole, that requires all toy, “look-alike,” or imitation firearms to have a bright orange plug or other salient marking. But manufacturers don’t always adhere to required standards and markings can be altered, according to law enforcement.

In a press conference on Wednesday, Santa Rosa police investigating the incident emphasized that Lopez’ airsoft gun did not have the required orange marker and public information officer Paul Henry says that the front portion had been removed. Unzipping two cases, an officer showed reporters a real AK 47-style rifle and the imitation that the teenager was carrying. “The firearm and airsoft rifle appeared remarkably similar, with matching black banana clips and brown stocks,” wrote the Santa Rosa Press Democrat. “Yet in the light of the [building where the conference was held] the model Lopez carried was clearly plastic with a transparent center section.” (In some places, restrictions on imitation guns require them to be made entirely of transparent materials.)

Law enforcement veterans who have made similar split-second decisions caution that police have to react instantly to potential threats. Jim Yurgealitis, a former agent for the Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tobacco and Explosives, worked the streets of Baltimore for more than a decade. He says the first time he ever found himself in a “shoot, don’t shoot situation” was when he and other officers mistook a BB gun that resembled a Colt .45; luckily, the man holding it handed it over and no shots were fired.

“In a stressful situation where it’s a question of using deadly force, you are not going to be able to get close enough to give a detailed inspection,” Yurgealitis says. “Officers have to make a decision in milliseconds and everybody can second guess it.” The deputies in Santa Rosa were roughly 20 to 30 feet from Lopez during the incident.

Some states and cities have passed legislation that goes beyond the federal requirement, whether banning toy guns that look realistic or requiring that certain replica guns not be sold to minors. In 2003, members of the New York City Council attempted to ban toy guns entirely. And in 2011, California State. Sen. Kevin de Leon pushed legislation that would have required the exterior surface of BB guns, which federal law does not require to be marked with blaze orange, to be brightly colored—a change meant to make them harder to mistake for real firearms. Because of a push by gun rights advocates in the state, his communications director Caves says, the bill had to be narrowed until it affected only the County of Los Angeles.

“These guns don’t belong on the street,” says Caves. “They endanger children and they endanger police … You can simply paint them some bright fluorescent colors that will give police an opportunity to easily identify them for what they really are and avoid this type of tragedy.” The Center for Public Integrity reports that critics of de Leon’s bill argued that real guns are now being painted bright colors too, which could lead to fatal confusion for officers, and that alternative colors could incorrectly suggest that BB guns are entirely safe and never lethal.

Governments elsewhere in the U.S. have been dealing with toy guns. A New Jersey bill currently in committee, for instance, would make it a crime to mask or color the orange tip of a toy gun (as well as to disguise a real gun with such markings). And in August, after police in Carrollton, Texas, were alerted that students were carrying “facsimile firearms” on school property, the city council banned the carrying of fake guns wherever real ones are prohibited. “We aren’t talking about neon green water guns,” the police chief told a local paper. “These guns are modeled after the real firearms … Without close inspection you can hardly tell them apart.”

267 comments
Andy'sRule
Andy'sRule

Friends of Andy Lopez are moving forward with plans to make Andy's name immortal with adoption of THE ANDY LOPEZ RULE on the use of deadly force by law enforcement in Sonoma County.  THE ANDY LOPEZ RULE:  LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL IN SONOMA COUNTY WILL NOT USE DEADLY FORCE UNLESS THEY ARE EITHER, a) FIRED UPON, b) UNDER OBVIOUS AND IMMINENT ATTACK, or c), PURSUING AN ARMED FUGITIVE FELON.   This rule WILL be adopted by local elected officials after a persistent campaign by Friends of Andy Lopez who WILL make the name ANDY LOPEZ immortal.  Don't forgive.  Don't forget.   No more unnecessary police shootings!  MAKE ANDY'S NAME IMMORTAL!

cpadre
cpadre

Because the proliferation of toy guns is the issue we need to address and not the irresponsible use of force and lack of judgement on the part of law enforcement. The police need to be policed.

jaimerobles707
jaimerobles707

What sucks is that a month ago in that same town a white older man shot his wife and shot at cops.  SWAT came and had a 11 hour stand off with him in a "ritzy" neighboord of Santa Rosa.  He dropped the guns and turned him self in...  He got 11 hours to think about it.  The 13 year old mexican kid in the poor neigborhood got less than 10 seconds to think about it.  Oh yeah, its confirmed he was walking to his friends house returning the pellet gun to his friend.   

I bet if he had blonde hair that day it would have a different story.  I would bet my life on it. 

jaimerobles707
jaimerobles707

Facts are the town is known to have kids playing with pellet guns.  There are pay to play fields for pellet guns in that town.  Cops in that town know this.  The cop has a history of being short tempered.  The actual pellet gun has not been shown to the public.  Witnesses are coming forward and saying the kid was givin 3 seconds to drop the pellet gun before being shot.  I think the cop messed up in a major way.  He should get locked up.  He is a Vet!  He is not in IRAQ!   He is not patrolling a war zone!.  He is in a civlian population.  Even in Iraq soilders are not allowed  to fire on anyone unless fired upon.  SMH 

DavidWhiteEagle
DavidWhiteEagle

Guns are NOT toys

Death is NOT fun

War is NOT a game

Why do we teach our children otherwise?

LukeWilliams
LukeWilliams

Many of you are missing that fact that it is legal to have a real gun in this country. The officer thought it was an adult with a real gun. At this point nothing illegal had happened. He was shot because he started to turn towards the officer, after the officer yelled to him. I think for most people, that if someone yells to you, your natural reaction is to turn and look to see who is yelling at you. You can spin it any way you want and talk all day about what you would have done, but the fact is a 13 year old boy was killed for playing with a toy gun, the officer thought was real.

LukeWilliams
LukeWilliams

So, sense the officers here are justifying the shooting, by this sheriff, because he thought it was a real gun. Many are posting saying the same thing. Well, first of all, it is not illegal for adults to have guns in this country. If an adult is about to go hunting and is putting his hunting rifle in his car or truck when a cop drives by and yells drop the gun, if the hunter turns to see who is yelling at him, the cop has the green light to shoot him? Seriously? Because it sounds to me like a lot of people, especially kids, are shot by cops for merely having a gun the cops think are real. Not that a crime has been done. Are they trying to say that the act of having a real looking gun is a crime? And one that a cop is free to shoot you for?

JarvisJasper
JarvisJasper

Andy Lopez was shot in the right buttocks = Shot in the back : (

= Erick Gelhaus shot a 13 year old kid in the back

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20131024/articles/131029764
During Thursday's autopsy, Dr. Arthur Josselson with the Forensic Medical Group determined one of the fatal bullets entered the right side of Lopez's chest and a second fatal wound was caused by a bullet that entered his right hip, Henry said.

Lopez was also wounded on his right wrist, left bicep, right forearm, right buttocks and right hip, all non-fatal injuries, Henry said. The doctor recovered three bullets from the body.

Rudyprimo
Rudyprimo

The police are out of control and the cop who shot this kid deserves jail time.  The police know there are toy guns that resemble real guns and when they see some kid walking down the street they should take extra caution before executing someone.  I'm sure there must have been people that saw this kid walking with the gun and yet no one called the police.  I guess regular citizens are better at assessing a situation than the police are.

Our troops in Afghanistan have to follow rules if engagement.  They can't shoot at anyone, even if they are carrying a real gun, unless they are shot at first.  I guess the citizens of Afghanistan deserve more protection than citizens and kids here do.

There's no reason they couldn't have taken an extra couple seconds to find out what was going on. The cops were behind cover, no shots had been fired and they had their guns trained on the kid.   I highly doubt this kid pointed the gun at the cops.  He was probably turning around to see who was yelling at him.  But the police lie all the time about what happens to them.  And that's a fact.  95% of judges polled in a large metro area said so.  Look at the cops in Dallas that executed a mentally unstable man.  They said he lunged at them but the neighbor had a video showing otherwise and the cops didn't know about it. 

iamasylum
iamasylum

I keep waiting for the catch... I've read several stories written on this kid, but I can't seem to see WHY he had the gun to begin with, and why he was carrying it around? It's really, really sad, for all involved. Including the police man who had to shoot him. If it had not been a toy, which he had no way of knowing, he could have killed or injured him. I really feel like as tragic as this is, it sounds like the cops MAY have been justified.

mdalgaard
mdalgaard

Morons, morons, and more morons, and knee jerk reactionaries.  Do your homework people!!!

Look, I am the first person to say cops suck and I wouldn't piss on one if he/she were on fire.  That being said, I am going to bat for them on this one.  Did you just expect them to keep driving on their way to the donut shop for Yellow Jelly Bear Claws and warm milk when they see a guy toting what was perceived to be an AK-47 in the open?  How soon we forget Newtown, Ct.  What happened to Andy Lopez is nothing short of a complete tragedy, but this incident was completely avoidable.  There were numerous California laws broken here and I blame the parents for not a)  Supervising Andy's (a minor) use of a weapon (yes, a BB gun is a weapon), and B)  Enrolling Andy in a firearms safety course.  Had these no-brainer precautions occurred, this tragedy would have never happened.

California has extensive BB gun laws. California defines a "BB device" as: "any instrument that expels a projectile, such as a BB or a pellet, not exceeding 6 mm caliber, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun."

Broken law number 1:  It is a misdemeanor in California to sell, loan, or transfer a BB gun, or "BB device" to a minor.  Andy was a minor and unsupervised.

Broken law number 2:  (And this one's a big fat "duh" and says it right in the second part of the last statute line).  Federal law requires imitation guns (including most BB guns) to have special colors or markings. These markings allow law enforcement officers to identify them as fake firearms, and can prevent the shooting of a person armed with a fake gun that looks real.  The orange barrel marker on Andy's gun was removed.

Broken law number 3:  It is unlawful to carry a loaded rifle, shotgun, or handgun in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated area or an area where firing a firearm is prohibited. Furthermore the open carry of any handgun, loaded or unloaded in an incorporated area has now been banned.  What the hell was Andy doing transporting an uncased weapon, especially one that looked real?

I'm sure if I looked a little harder, I could find more violations, but anyone with a 3rd grade education and a hint of common sense should get the point, so maybe 10 percent of you.

JoeY21
JoeY21

QUESTION #1 WHY ARENT THE PARENTS TAKING RESPONSIBILITY?? MY PARENTS WOULD HAVE NEVER LET ME CARRY AROUND A TOY GUN...AND AT 13 I WOULD HAVE COMMON SENSE TO NOT WALK AROUND WITH ANY TOY GUN NO MATTER WHAT COLOR IT WAS.. 

johnnysynth2003
johnnysynth2003

What is a 13 year old doing walking around with a toy AK that has apparently been modified to 'not look fake,' and refusing to drop it when asked??   Sorry, got to give it to the police on this one.

AirSplat
AirSplat

As one of the largest airsoft retailers, Airsplat.com has started a fund raiser for Anthony Lopez and to bring awareness to proper gun safety and handling.


You can read all the details here: http://blog.airsplat.com/2013/10/andy-lopez-fundraiser-airsplat-killed-police-carrying-airsoft-gun.html

DavidSchrom
DavidSchrom

When I was a kid in the 70's, there was an incident in the Mid-Western state we lived in where a young child was playing with a toy pistol in his front yard.  A patrol car passed by and the 6 year old actually pointed his toy cowboy pistol at the cop.  The officer stopped his patrol car, positioned himself behind his door, unholstered his firearm (revolver back then) and proceeded to shoot at the young boy.  1 bullet pierced through the kids heart and he died immediately.

Want to know what happened to the shooter cop?  He was charged with Aggravated 2nd Degree Murder & ended up being convicted of Aggravated Manslaughter.  He was sent to State Prison..  My parents along with an army of other parents followed that case to the end.  They demanded justice, and justice was served...  That officer's sad tale didn't end there.  Years later we read that after losing his wife and his career as a law enforcement officer (he was barred from just going to another town to be a cop again), he committed suicide...

MichaelJeffers
MichaelJeffers

What my kids want and what my kids get are two different things. This is sad and very tragic. I feel for the parents of this young boy. But these are choices as parents, we make. Again, if I buy my kid a replica toy gun, and my kid makes a conscious choice to make it look real, then how can I protect him from what others may protrude it as. I'm sorry, guns don't kill people, people kill people. But if my kid was going to his friends house to play with his gun, I would take the time to teach him to put it a bag, or carry it in a backpack, and explain how something like this could be miscrutinized. Its not job of law enforcement to teach our kids what's right and wrong. Its our job as their parents...... We are responsible for their well being until there adults.

jpaia
jpaia

No one should be producing toys that in any way resemble real weapons, and no one should be carrying an assault rifle on the street.  The parents should not have condoned the behavior.  In this climate,  I cannot blame the police for anticipating fire.  Regrettable, for sure, but parents take responsibility.  Voters, quit allowing NRA and gun manufacturers to control gun legislation. 

conscientious
conscientious

Let me ask a few questions here:

1. Even if the cops felt threatened is it still necessary to shoot 7 times?

2. Why did they not shoot at the feet or legs where there would be a smaller casualty?

We need more educated cops on our roads to keep our streets safe. Police officers who are aware of the fatality of a gun shot, who shoot cautiously, trying to preserve life as much as possible.  

JodieShields
JodieShields

Poor Andy,  what he would have done with his life, if he wasn't on his way  to play at a friends house.  They took only 10 seconds from call to shooting a kid to death, yet 16 seconds to call for an ambulance.  Guess they weren't thinking that he would be able to survive 7 gunshots.  What you won't hear about is this,  all 13 to 30 year olds are listening to music, was he?  Did he not hear or see them until the fatal error of turning around?  Is there a video that is mounted on most police cars.  It was 3:15 in the afternoon.  It was after school.  I am in an air conditioned office wearing a hoodie.  Is this now considered un-appropiate, maybe for office wear, but certainly not for a 13 year old kid.   I wonder if all parents will throw away their kids air projective kids toys, now.   From the suspicious person call to death, only 10 seconds.  My heart goes out to his family.

ChadCasale
ChadCasale

@Andy'sRuleI'm actually sitting here reading all of these comments and shaking my head about how ridiculous you all sound. Use deadly force only after being fired at? What happens when the first shot KILLS the cop? Oh, I guess that doesn't really matter. Just another PIG in the ground. The police do a very dangerous job and need to make split second decisions on threats they encounter. There is no time to discern between a real and a toy gun. There is no shooting a person in the leg. That is all Hollywood nonsense. And believe me, these airsoft guns look, feel and operate the exact same way a real firearm does. They have the same external features, colors and markings and their internal mechanisms work exactly the same as a real weapon.


That being said, I wasn't there and really wish dashcam footage existed of this incident. What was said? Was the victim told to drop the gun or get on the ground? These are important questions that need to be answered. Did the victim comply? Was he combative? So many unanswered questions.




tfdrumm
tfdrumm

@Andy'sRule I'm not 100% sure, but it looks to me like you have described current policy.  The Deputy believed himself to be under "obvious and imminent attack."  What is yet to be determined is whether this believe was reasonable, given all the facts.

fitzwilly1967
fitzwilly1967

@Andy'sRule What an incredible idea..  But here's another:  Let's disarm the Police..  NO FIREARMS WHATSOVER for Patrol Cops.  Absolutely NONE.  Give them a Badge, a Billy Club, and a Radio..  That's it....   If there is a serious situation in need of fire power, let these uneducated dumb-dumbs radio it in to a Highly Trained Tactical Unit, who aren't just going around willy-nilly shooting people to death......


There was no good reason for this murder.  And it was indeed, murder...  Indict these clown cops on charges of 2nd Degree Homicide, or at the very least, Manslaughter, and get them OFF THE STREETS! 


Pathetic...  

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@LukeWilliams  this is the crux . as you say, even if the gun was real, a crime had not been committed . gelhaus is an idiot and a murderer

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@iamasylum  'including the police man who had to shoot him' ... HAD TO ??? this is bicare . it doesn't matter what gelhaus thought he was carrying, as gelhaus ASSUMED he was an adult, which meant gelhaus had to respect his right to carry a weapon . this is a right guaranteed to every one of us by the second amendment, regardless of local attempts, through legislation, to restrict that right

this was murder

you are part of the problem

fitzwilly1967
fitzwilly1967

@iamasylum This is a rural area where a LOT of young boys play with Airsoft and Pellet Guns.  This is NOT unusual.  And this isn't Downtown New York City..


And one other little "Fact" that seems to have alluded a lot of posters on this article:  It is NOT illegal to possess & Open Carry REAL Firearms in this Country..  Just ask any Hunter or Target Shooter..  So the idea of these idiot cops believing the gun to be REAL and not a TOY is a moot point..  Because REAL GUNS ARE LEGAL...


Absolutely NO reason or justification for this killing.....  Indict, arrest & convict these cowardly policemen...

LukeWilliams
LukeWilliams

@iamasylum The reality is, the gun was a toy. It was not real. "What if it was real?" means nothing, because it was not real. The boy was killed for playing with a toy gun that the officer said looked real. Many adults have real guns. Many are hunters. Police do not go around shooting hunters. There was no excuse for shooting this kid. The so called threat, did not exist. The gun was a toy. The sheriff was never in danger. There is reality and there is imagination. The reality is the boy was playing with a toy gun. All the "what ifs" are imaginary. Excuses. 

Chickylala
Chickylala

He was returning he gun to his buddy's house

fitzwilly1967
fitzwilly1967

@mdalgaard Perhaps you are the moron..   Andy's Airsoft gun was a rifle, not a handgun...


Come on mdalgaard, this is a 13-yr old kid playing with an Airsoft rifle not even as potent as the Daisy BB Guns that you I both had as youngsters..  This is a RURAL area where LOTS of 13-yr old boys play with Airsoft guns..


The cop that shot Andy is a complete idiot, and a danger to ANY society....



LukeWilliams
LukeWilliams

@mdalgaard Does this include cap guns as well? This was an airsoft gun, not a BB gun. Yeah, I know it uses air or in most cases a spring. But, I shoot spit wads with air also. I guess that would legally or illegally be a gun? As in number 3, it was not a real rifle, shotgun, or hand gun. The boy did not break any laws. If you really feel what this boy did, justifies him being shot and killed, you have bigger problems to worry about.

Chickylala
Chickylala

Did you read the artcle; plastic projectiles are not a BB pellets, makes he rest of your rant moot.

fitzwilly1967
fitzwilly1967

@JoeY21 Hmm, where were MY parents when I was toting around a REAL BB-gun in the Rural town in which we lived??  I'll tell you where, they were working, but they trusted that our city police weren't complete IDIOTS and knew that us kids played safely with BB-guns!  I never got SHOT at by the police!  Why?  Because the Police back then weren't complete dumb-dumbs chanting the "I felt threatened for my life" BS....


Murder, plain and simple...  Indict, Arrest, Prosecute..  Get these ignorant ass-wipe cops off the streets..  They are not only a nuisance, they are a danger to our society........

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@johnnysynth2003  are you just plain unaware that the second amendment gives us the right to carry weapons?  no matter your opinion about whether we should have that right, we do . gelhaus thought that was an adult legally carrying a firearm, and murdered him


wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@DavidSchrom  what was his name?  i'd love to re-publish that story . sad about the suicide, more sad about the kid . the right thing happened to that cop, being convicted of the crime he committed . police are not supposed to be shooting just because someone has a weapon . they are supposed to take cover and wait/try for disarming the 'suspect' through communication

ANNON
ANNON

@jpaia  Really? by not blaming the police you are condoning the behavior. Shot 7 times in 10 seconds how can condone that behavior we have due process  or suppose to have due process. The police have a loud speaker in the car they  could of  gave out orders to him. I have been in situations where you don't have time to think,  no one should support the rhetoric of "you weren't there you don't know the situation or It is easy to say what they could of done" . Suing will not help because they pay out  with tax dollars the city needs to release their contracts. When do we start cry out for reform? Innocent people now fear the police.

JoeY21
JoeY21

@conscientious ITS CALLED DEADLY FORCE...NO BODY CAN AIM AND HIT A FOOT...OR HAND...I WAS A COP AND DONT BELIEVE THE MOVIES..IF YOU WANT TO PRESERVE LIFE BLAME THE PARENTS..WHY WASNT THIS KID TAUGHT BETTER AT HOME TO NOT CARRY A TOY AK47...ALWAYS FOLLOW PROBLEMS TO THE HOMES OF THESE KIDS.

WhodaThunkIt
WhodaThunkIt

@conscientious When lethal force is being used you don't try for trick shots.  That's hollywood garbage.  As for the 7 times, he was HIT 7 they fired more, but when there is the possibility of fully automatic fire coming back you shoot till the threat is down.  What is needed is more education about firearms.  The real guilt here lies with his parents, for making a series of extremely poor choices and not monitoring their son's activities.

conticreative
conticreative

@ChadCasale @Andy'sRule What was the "supposed" adult doing? Walking with a gun? Is that illegal now? 

When called he turned around. What was he supposed to do? Stare straight?  

The cops had an eternity to observe, call back up and make up scenarios in their mind, the kid was unaware of all this, he is called turns around and he gets shot.


What about those 2nd amendment "heroes" that walk around with AK for political reasons? Why aren't they all shot up to pieces? Maybe because they are not committing a crime (only one of stupidity)?

What about hunters returning from a hunt? Are they to be afraid that a passing cop my execute them in front of their homes?


And yes, if in war zones soldiers can shoot only after shot upon, so can our police. 

HessianYT
HessianYT

@fitzwilly1967 @Andy'sRule  Remember Officer Tippit? The one killed by the same man as JFK? Yeah, he was armed - sure. But had he not been armed, he would have had no chance to call it on on the radio. Use your common sense. Police are armed to protect us, and it's the kids fault for carrying around a bloody airsoft gun.


All firearms should be banned in America, real, fake or airsoft - whatever. Unless it is a trained professional that holds authority wielding it. 

tfdrumm
tfdrumm

@ANNON @jpaia And where would the cops take cover from AK-47 fire while they were using the PA? Do you imagine that cop cars are armored?

johnnysynth2003
johnnysynth2003

@ANNON  Refusing to drop a modified toy and turning toward the police with the still unknown toy.  I don't believe the police did anything worng.  C'mon, 13 is a little old to be carrying a toy gun and wanting people to believe it's a toy.  Wake up and stop stoking the fire.  Sometimes an accident IS an accident.

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@JoeY21 @conscientious  blaming the victim of a murder . look in the mirror . what do you see?  an obedient slave who believes there is some value to allowing this country to become a police state

ANNON
ANNON

@WhodaThunkIt @conscientious No the blame lies with the people who killed the Kid! Are you serious or are you paid to help persuade the argument on public forums? I have seen cops disarm thieves, rescue hostages and talk down jumpers. So possible automatic fire coming back at you ? because that kid can head shot all day right ?  I'm letting you know right now that these incidents are happening exponential across the nation. How long can you keep shifting the blame everyone is starting to see the Common factor here. Good cops need to stand up not to help cover up but to fix these issues with honesty and respect.

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

maybe you wanna be a sitting duck to idiot cops, @HessianYT, but the rest of us choose to continue to exercise our right to bear arms ... and intend to use them to defend ourselves, including against idiot cops @fitzwilly1967 @Andy'sRule  

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@tfdrumm @ANNON @jpaia  yes, they are armored ... their cars are armored ... and nobody was pointing a weapon in their direction, let alone firing that weapon

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@johnnysynth2003 @ANNON  even if it was a real gun, police don't have the right to shoot citizens just because we're carrying a weapon, as the second amendment allows us to do 

fitzwilly1967
fitzwilly1967

@johnnysynth2003 @ANNON 3 seconds!!!  Cops had absolutely NO reason or justification to start blasting away at this poor kid..  He had NO time to ascertain the situation and respond to any police commands...

wiseoldsnail
wiseoldsnail

@johnnysynth2003 @ANNON @WhodaThunkIt @conscientious  are you serious?  in a matter of seconds of arriving, gelhaus opened fire . the kid likely never even heard him . even if gelhaus did call out to him, andy was not given any time to respond, and did not respond with any threatening gesture ... and did NOT FIRE THAT WEAPON AT POLICE, which is the ONLY reason gelhaus would've had for shooting him