Battleland

History Threatens Repeat in Renewed Pacific War

Disputes over islands in Asia reflect a wider failure to reconcile differences among nations stemming from historical conflicts

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Reuters

A Japan coast-guard patrol boat, top, exchanges blasts from water cannons with a Taiwan coast-guard vessel in Japan-controlled waters near the disputed Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea

The good news is that there won’t be a new war in Asia. The bad news is that the old one never really ended. And with Japanese and foreign patrol boats firing water cannons at each other this week, it may not be long before the real shooting resumes.

“The dispute over the Senkaku Islands is a direct legacy of the Pacific War. For many people, particularly in China, that war is still going on,” says Liu Jie, professor of history and international relations at Tokyo’s Waseda University.

Liu was among a dozen historians who converged on Tokyo this week to take a new look at the 15-year conflict that ended — or seemed to — with Japan’s surrender in August 1945. The consensus is grim: nearly seven decades later, wartime adversaries share little agreement over how the war started, who was responsible or how to bury grudges that remain very much alive.

The results are plain to see in the escalating dispute over the Senkakus, a group of uninhabited islands in the East China Sea controlled by Japan but claimed by China and Taiwan. Fishing boats and patrol vessels from China and Taiwan have entered territorial waters in recent weeks to protest Japan’s nationalization of the islands earlier this month.

(PHOTOS: Anti-Japan Protests Hit China’s Capital)

In the tensest confrontation yet, Japan coast-guard vessels on Wednesday fired water cannons at Taiwanese fishermen. Taiwan coast-guard ships fired back before withdrawing. There were no injuries, but China has vowed to continue entering Japanese-controlled waters to press its claims.

The dispute can be traced at least in part to the Pacific War. China resisted the Japanese from the early 1930s and expected the islands to be ceded to them at the end of the war. So did the Kuomintang nationalists, who had fled to Taiwan after being beaten by communist rivals. Instead, the victorious Americans kept the islands until 1972, then returned them to Tokyo, along with other islands southwest of mainland Japan. “The perception among the Chinese public is that China defeated Japan. And so they think that America should have given the Senkaku Islands back to China when the war ended,” says Liu.

Japan has a very different view, says Fumitaka Kurosawa, a professor of modern Japanese history at Tokyo Woman’s Christian University. “We see ourselves as having been defeated by the United States, not by China. So we don’t have to be aware of the defeat when it comes to the relationship between Japan and China,” Kurosawa says.

Tokyo officially claimed the Senkakus in 1895, as its military power began to dwarf that of its Asian rivals. Both countries have produced documents claiming ownership of the islands that date back centuries. The islands are called Diaoyu in China and Tiaoyutai in Taiwan.

Japan has blamed Chinese authorities and media of distorting the dispute and perpetuating anti-Japanese sentiment. Chinese television is full of movies, dramas and documentaries built around the real or fictional aggressions and atrocities of Japan’s Imperial Army. Estimates of Chinese who were killed during the conflict range as high as 20 million; tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers were still in China when the conflict ended.

Japanese authorities have issued numerous apologies, acknowledged some of the worst atrocities and paid compensation to war victims in China and elsewhere. But those apologies are often viewed as insincere and the compensation inadequate.

Even in Japan there is still no widely accepted understanding or close examination of such key issues as the role of the Emperor, prewar political objectives or the extent of Japanese war crimes, says Kurosawa.

Instead, Japan’s historical memory — shaped in part by the allied decision not to prosecute the Emperor and to quickly rehabilitate Japan as a Cold War ally — has focused largely on the damage done at home. “To understand how a defeat happened is not particularly pleasant in a defeated country, so it’s avoided,” says Kurosawa. “We tend to see ourselves as victims, because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the air raids on Tokyo and other cities. That has created in Japan a level of the sense of victimization that is inappropriate.”

Japan and China, as well as South Korea, at various times have accused each other of willfully distorting school textbooks and fanning nationalist sentiment for domestic political gain. Some see economic self-interest behind the Senkaku dispute and a separate argument between Japan and South Korea over the Liancourt Rocks, a tiny island in the Sea of Japan known as Takeshima in Japan and Dokdo in Korea.

The Senkaku/Dokdo region includes productive fishing areas and is thought to contain large deposits of oil and gas.

“No one cares about a few rocks in the middle of the ocean except for a few ultra-nationalists,” says Peter Dennis, a military historian and professor emeritus at the University of New South Wales in Australia. “What the governments are worried about are natural resources. But they can use popular opinion to mobilize support. So if you say, ‘We are here to defend our national honor,’ it’s a potent argument.”

No one is predicting a prolonged and bloody conflict like the first Pacific War and cooler heads may yet prevail in the ongoing territorial disputes.

But H.P. Willmott, an author of several books on the Pacific War and a lecturer at Britain’s Greenwich Maritime Institute, says the unwillingness or inability of each side to recognize the other’s point of view could lead to the same kind of mistakes and miscalculations that contributed to the first Pacific War.

“Japan never understood the force of nationalism other than their own, especially in China and the United States. Every country has fought the war one war at the wrong time, but Japanese thinking in the Pacific War was flawed in every way,” says Willmott. “I can see an armed conflict taking place [over Senkaku/Diaoyu]. How would it turn out? God knows.”

56 comments
Matthew Jackson
Matthew Jackson

Interesting article... i think its important to know that war is always going to exist.  my buddies and i talk strategy cuz we play with airsoft guns http://www.airsplat.com/airsof...  and its always interesting the topics we discuss. 

Motojiro
Motojiro

Taiwan fishery people were interviewed.

"We would only like to do our fishing in areas around Senkaku. We don't care about islands."

http://www.j-cast.com/tv/2012/...

We do know why it matters to Taiwan fishery industry for such a long time. Since so many years ago, reckless fishing by China mainland fishery and contamination in the water made fishing more difficult, combined with sea temperature changes made fishes to move to other areas to North [we see that changes, too in Japan].

Illegal fishers by Chinese have been spotted recently as close as Russia in Japan sea. The ship(s) was captured by Russian coast guard and found what catches they stole.

In Japan sea, South Korean did the same even today. In Tottori, Shimane, Yamaguchi, Fukuoka prefectures, we found tons yearly (costing millions $ to us) "sea wastes" left by illegal fishing by them. They today have sensors installed such a way that they can find Japan Coast Guard and Japanese fishery men approaching to them fast. They leave GPS equipped fishing traps - continuing killing fishes and crabs - because no one is collecting them out of the sea beds. The ships came as close as Niigata prefecture. Today, their reckless fishing resulted in fewer and fewer catches, and claiming Japan for the result.

So in Japan, we try to send fish and crab babies every year. But today's illegal fishing by both China mainland and South Korea (who also recently found dumping nuclear wastes for years without telling IAEA and neighboring countries - and some sea crops contain high radiation signs) became too extreme level.

So we don't surprise that negotiation talks were asked by Taiwan to Japan to raise the line - so close or covering Senkaku islands - to benefit Taiwanese fishers.

We Southerners in Japan do all know about this, too. Because we experience it together with them.

However, we do mind to confuse sea territory expansion with historical background that did never include Senkaku and Okinawa islands.

In 2010, China announced that it will expand its sea territory:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%...

Can we see 1 st island chain and 2nd island chain?

Why do people think that China forcefully took South China Sea's territories from Philippine and other nations? Look, 1st line includes Senkaku islands. And few days ago, China went to UN claiming Okinawa's sea is its territory:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%...

In Okinawa, Japan has US camp, and other assets internationally important when 3/11 2011 happened.

The line 1 includes sea of Kyushu, too - Nagasaki, Kumamoto, Fukuoka, Kagoshima prefectures are claimed to be China's.

Now, we Southerners don't see any stupidest reasons why in our histories, why on earth our living territories of the sea "historically belong to China" ?

Okinawa was a part of Japan, playing trading role with so many countries in Asia - and goes back to Heian period easily. Eventually it became a part of Japan by Shimazu clan (powerful clan in South Japan) who kept trades with clan in Okinawa for a long time.

Now suddenly trades Okinawa made with China became a reason to claim "it historically belongs to China" - to us, "since when?"

Those whose clan families lived in the period as old as before Heian period are alive here. And we see no reason about the claim.

And why line 2 goes much further to "world heritage" Ogasawara islands?

And where is line 3? Including US and/or Australian territories, we do feel that coming with "historically it belongs to China" for no reason.

mahboob_1948
mahboob_1948

Taiwan was created by the United States for the Kuomintang  to take refuge and make a come back on mainland China.Since that never took place Japan should take it over and launch on mainland China to clear out communism.

whale456
whale456

 You have a very violent and extremist attitude. China and Taiwan essentially have peaceful relations right now even though there is still the disagreement.  I think in due time China will switch over to a democracy, perhaps in several generations.  Everyone recognizes the value of a free society. That being said, there were some good things that came out of communism in China. For one, Mao Zedong abolished the 1000 year old practice of foot binding for women. That is a great liberation for the female gender.  Although Japan is a democracy, the women in China experience far more equality and less oppression than the women in Japan.  If you visit a software company in Japan, there are no women engineers. There are hardly any women in upper management in a business.  Women have much more opportunities in China.  Sometimes the underlying traditions of a country are far more influential and dominating than the actual form of government.

mahboob_1948
mahboob_1948

 Talking about Mao and women's lib.Forgot what Mao's wife did by being the leader of the infamous Gang of Four?Prior to that what the Dowager Empress did with the boxers?I disagree with you.East Asia is not like Europe and nor like the Muslim countries.Leave Japan alone.They know what they are doing.

Shine_A_Torch
Shine_A_Torch

Holocaust amp; Nanjing Massacre

Both are sadistic killings out of hatred. After WWII, Germany was trailed at Nuremberg, the country repented and was forgiven by other nations. Japan was never tried for its wartime atrocities and in fact was awarded the Diaoyu Islands. Some in Japan continued to deny its shameful military deeds and even rewrote history books to say that the Nanjing Massacre never happened.

Japan’s apologies? What a joke. lol.

Motojiro
Motojiro

When we think of victims of the war, they are not only those who were affected, killed outside Japan. But also those in Japan.

Because a war can bring in all sort of people - who won't regard human life more than "a country", who are only power oriented, who just like to kill people brutally. Sure, all people * in Japan then did have something in the war. However, we also know how kids and teens were used** for top military people.

Kids, aged 7, 12, 13 were used to face adult military people from the US. In the documentary, Japanese relatives said "why did you kill kids?" while American veterans in the war with kids said "why did adults use kids, we felt as if we were shooting own kids - as I had, others had." Both in tears.

Teens, aged 16~some 20s, those who were seen as adults were used as human bombs to attack enemy ships. Teens wanted to do something for protecting own country without knowing "what" were happening, done outside Japan.

Kids-teens, taken to China were used to build a sense of "this is a still ongoing big war to win" among them. As a training, they were forced to walk with heavy rucksack on their back throughout the middle China from North to South for months. None of them had an experience of killing another. Many died in marching mountains for starvation.  Often they were gathered before 50 years old military adults, ordered to kill hostages. All kids moved backwards for the fear - never killed anyone, never wished to know to be a killer. Names were called, and adults told kids if they would not follow the order, they would be punished later, severely. Some kids, closed their eyes, stubbed blinded hostages with gun knife. (this is from NHK documentary, interviews with then small kid soldiers in China)

While top military groupies were completely drunk in power, eating good foods, wearing clean clothes, sleeping in safe big homes, and looking at maps every night they thought they would see someday.

So no one was unhappy to see them tried in court, killed. Never felt shameful to apologize people affected and killed in the war. Because we know their lives taken because of the war. We were also happy to see the end of the war, because we know that kids and teens of ourselves will never be used in such ways ever again by someone who just want to "do" wars endlessly. And very happy that people could display how much we hate adult military people so openly in the public, which we couldn't do.

Only thing that we regret is, the fact that those who participated in brutal killings just because they wanted (not ordered by anyone, just murdering others) lived long, enjoyed Japan after WWII, and happily died already without experience what could be a justice to other people - outside and inside Japan.

[*though this is overstatement because foreign people don't know anyone who went against the war, never seen, never heard if they know about the people in Japan.

**all letters of those teens were recently found. The letters were collected by someone in Japanese military force after WWII secretly from families. I think in the NHK documentary, it was said that Marine did that and it owns letters as a permanent collection.]

We made a promise with a world, after the war, that we will never forget about the war, never start or join a war, know what war does to people from many dimensions, and continue learning about the war and a war of many kinds in the future.

Sure, we wish we can travel back then to correct things, but we only can learn.

BTW, what happened in Nagasaki*** as one of key reasons why Japan entered a war against China.....

[***http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%...]

for some reasons, this is "irrelevant" in history studies about Japan and the war according to European academics and journalists, that we do know, too.

beatrix779
beatrix779

As a person of Taiwanese descent, I strongly oppose any Chinese

claims to West Pacific / Polynesian islands that closer to other nations.

Taiwan has the right to make claims to these islands due to its proximity but

it needs to do it as a sovereign nation of Taiwan and NOT as a ghost of R.O.C

under KMT. 

beatrix779
beatrix779

As a person of Taiwanese descent, I strongly oppose any Chinese

claims to West Pacific / Polynesian islands that are closer to other nations.

Taiwan has the right to make claims to these islands due to its proximity but

it needs to do it as a sovereign nation of Taiwan and NOT as a ghost of R.O.C

under KMT.

beatrix779
beatrix779

As a person of Taiwanese descent, I strongly oppose any Chinese

claims to west pacific / Polynesian islands that closer to other nations.

Taiwan has the right to make claims to these islands due to its proximity but

it needs to do it as a sovereign nation of Taiwan and NOT a ghost of R.O.C

under KMT. 

beatrix779
beatrix779

As a person of Taiwanese descent, I strongly oppose any Chinese

claims to west pacific / Polynesian islands that closer to other nations.

Taiwan has the right to make claims to these islands due to its proximity but

it needs to do it as a sovereign nation of Taiwan and NOT a ghost of R.O.C

under KMT. 

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

>> A Japan coast-guard patrol boat, top, exchanges blasts from water cannons with a Taiwan coast-guard vessel in Japan-controlled waters near the disputed Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea

Not an exchange at all. The Japanese ship is bullying a fishing boat, and the Taiwan ship is just putting up a show. If the Taiwan ship were to do anything meaningful to protect the small boats, it ought to try to disable the the other ship's water cannon.

whale456
whale456

Having grown up in the US, I haven't heard of any significant apologies or compensations from the Japanese government to the war victims in China, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam and Phillipines.  The emperor and generals were not tried for war crimes in the ICJ ilke the Nuremberg Trials.

Kirk, please cite your sources for your following statements. I believe it to be infactual.

>Japanese authorities have issued numerous apologies, acknowledged some

of the worst >atrocities and paid compensation to war victims in China

and elsewhere. But those >apologies are often viewed as insincere and the

compensation inadequate. 

Yamatosenkan
Yamatosenkan

1. The Japanese have apologized dozens of times: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

2. The Japanese have paid billions of dollars in war reparations every year since 1972, to as late as 2010.3. All textbooks clearly and unequivocally talk of Japan as the aggressor and mention the Nanjing massacre. (The revisionist textbook is used only in 0.25% of schools).4. Yasukuni is not a "war criminal temple", it is visited to appease the souls of the dead since the 1868 Japanese civil war. It is a religious thing, the souls have to be appeased. 

Nudelmann
Nudelmann

"The emperor and generals were not tried for war crimes in the ICJ ilke the Nuremberg Trials."

There were 25 officers and officials charged in the Nuremberg trials and 28 officers and officials charged with Class A crimes in the Tokyo trials. 5,700 Japanese nationals were charged with Class B and C crimes. -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I...

Only the royal family was barred from trial. Who's fault is that? Certainly not the Japanese. You can thank MacArthur and Truman for that.

Please, get your facts straight before showing your absolute ignorance of American history.

whale456
whale456

You seem to be unable to have a civil discussion.

 

Your numbers only describe those who were indicted, not convicted.  The number of convicted is much too small a number for the 10-20 million Chinese and Southeast Asians killed.

No one has yet to cite any sources describing compensation.

Also, this is not 'American' history and I certainly don't believe everything I read on wikipedia.

zero_point
zero_point

Here is a list of war apologies by Japanese politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L...

sdfqef
sdfqef

I see a lot of regrets.  Not much else of anything.  No kidding they regretted it...  they were the receiving end of two nukes after all. 

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

Huh?  Even the BBC says Japan has apologized 17 times to China since 1972.  The reason you haven't heard anything growing up in the US is that in America, there is no interest in Asia.  The only time you see Asians in the news is when they are being made fun of, ridiculed, or seen as a military or economic threat. 

LOL.  Poor guy.  I also grew up in the US.

whale456
whale456

 Apparently, the list of war apologizes is not enough as even many in the next generation of their own country don't believe in Japan's war of aggression. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y...

Removing the war criminals from the Yasukuni Shrine would speak volumes to the present generation as to the wrongness of their deeds.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> Even the BBC says Japan has apologized 17 times to China since 1972. 

How many times did their government officials went to their war criminal shrine?

Just demolish that, and no more apology is needed.

> The only time you see Asians in the news

Move to the Bay Area and expect to see Asians as the majority in some schools.

Daniel E Vasey
Daniel E Vasey

While none of the royal family members were tried, several hundred Japanese convicted of war crimes were executed by various countries. Those executed included high-ranking Generals Yamashita and Tojo; the latter had served as Prime Minister.

Scotty_A
Scotty_A

The Chinese did not defeat Japan during World War II. Frankly the Chinese were more interested in fighting each other for who would rule China once the Americans defeated Japan. The American government supports the Japanese claim to the islands under dispute. And it is fair to question the Chinese claims since they were only made because of the potential for natural resources. The Chinese have significant territorial disputes will virtually all of their neighbors. Regardless, it is sad to see this conflict escalate. It is a bad omen for East Asia that multiple territorial conflicts exist. It reminds me of the situation before World War I. 

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> The Chinese have significant territorial disputes will virtually all of their neighbors.

China's land border is mostly settled by now. You have to understand the reason for China's numerous disputes in the seas.

Before western colonists arrived in east Asia and the rise of Japan, China was far ahead of anyone else in the region. There were basically no disputes at all. When the last Chinese dynasty collapsed, many small countries around got many islands not by their own, but through the powers of  their colonists.

Now the colonists are mostly gone, and China for the first time has a real navy. China's goal now really is not about to get those islands back, but to just use them as bargaining chips for a much bigger goal, that is to carve out an east Asia sphere of influence, just like the backyard the Chinese empire had before.

The real reason of the dispute between China and Japan right now is actually China trying to find reasons to punish Japan for earlier making a few moves closer to the USA. Expect to see more economical moves from China instead of all the drama of military bluff.

mu119
mu119

What you say is only partially true, if it wasn't for the fact that Japanese forces were tied down in China, Japan would have been able to focus the materials, troops, and attention elsewhere.

So yes when you say America defeated Japan, because Japan can't stand up to the economic might of US. But please imagine what would have happen if Japan manage to win the war in China prior to or after the attack on Pearl Harbor, instead of being bogged down mainly by the KMT and partially by the communist party. I believe you would be facing a very different Japan then.

So next time when you say Chinese did not defeat Japan, please bear in mind what the Chinese did to tied down Japan, and give us some credit, even if it is only partial to the final victory which is achieve by US

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

This is the only intelligent comment I've seen so far.  The rest of the posters are ignorant and don't know their own or anyone else's history.

Publius
Publius

It is generally a mistake to assume that history will repeat itself.

But given history’s tendency to do just that, it is an even bigger mistake to

assume that history will not repeat itself. And it is also a mistake to ignore

history’s lessons and not learn from them. Some valuable lessons from history are

relevant to the current situation—really a looming crisis—in Iran. Both America

and the world ought to heed those lessons.

For more on this topic see Essay Number XXIV, "Parallels in History: The Iran Crisis," at thepubliuspapers.com 

Yacko
Yacko

I just love it. Firing water cannons at each other. It truly was a pissing contest.

Guest
Guest

Not really 'at each other' if you see the above picture closely.

Japan fired water-cannon at Taiwan fishboats to block their entry into Japanese water. 

Taiwan coast guard fired water at Japan coast-guard, but Japan could not fire back. 

Exercise of force against government ship operated for non-commercial purposes is against the Subsection C of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.  Japan has ratified the Convention, while Taiwan, as a state with limited recognition at UN, has not.

gurayyz
gurayyz

Not really 'at each other' if you see the above picture closely.

Japan fired water-cannon at Taiwan fishboats to block their entry into Japanese water. 

Taiwan coast guard fired water at Japan coast-guard, but Japan could not fire back. 

Exercise of force against government ship operated for non-commercial purposes is against the Subsection C of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea.  Japan has ratified the Convention, while Taiwan, as a state with limited recognition at UN, has not.

Collider
Collider

hmmm.. I should stock up on high-end Japanese electronics and 1$ Chinese junk before these water sports escalate into a war.

sdfqef
sdfqef

You must not own a lot of high end Japanese electronics.  Because they all say Made in China on the back.

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

No, not the high-end.  Their super-expensive, professional stuff is Made in Japan.  They are smart enough not to outsource their high end to China or anywhere else.

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

You're confussed.  The high-end stuff is still Made in Japan.  The Japanese do not outsource their best technology.  And to keep the quality top-notch, they use Japanese workers in Japanese factories.

sdfqef
sdfqef

Ignorance is bliss I guess.... /shrugs

Collider
Collider

You must not know the definition of high-end electronics.. Most of the products I own are "Made In Japan", not "Made In China"..

IAF101
IAF101

Don't confuse "assembled in China" to "Made in China". China can't make dog biscuits without causing genocide!

IAF101
IAF101

Just because a Toyota's are "assembled" in China doesn't make them anymore "Chinese" then Sushi served in a Shanghai restaurant!!

Is there nobody in China who has any idea what intellectual property is or am I forced to suffer through more dullards like this one ?

sdfqef
sdfqef

Did you pull that factoid up from MTV along with your Tibetan freedom daily BS?  Most of the components in your so called "Made in Japan" are made in China.  But I guess ignorance is bliss for people these days... Continue to love your "Made in Japan" product. lol.

IAF101
IAF101

And Chinese suffer the caricature of being incompetent idiots period.

Unlike China, Germany actually invented the automobile and was known for industrial quality since the beginning of the industrial revolution. The USA was similarly known for its inventions of the revolver, the pistol, the light bulb, the telephone, the aeroplane etc. The Japanese invented instant noodles! What has china invented except an uncanny aptitude for forgery ??

Comparing a nation as intellectually and indeed morally bankcrupt as the modern day sweatshop of the "People republic of cheap labor and cheaper fakes" to the USA is beyond ludicrous, given that unlike China, the USA has contributed more towards human progress and technical know how in the last 300 years than China has in all its 5500 years of existence!

duduong
duduong

Americans suffer the caricature of being know-nothing idiots, and people like you are largely responsible. Don't they teach history in high schools, even in America?

Any newly industrialized nation has to go through a period when their product quality is widely mocked. The "made-in-xxxx" label was first mandated by Britain in 1872 because German fakes were flooding British market. In the 1900s, "made-in-USA" was equivalent to trash. In the 1950s, "made-in-Japan" means cheap plastic junk. In the 1980s, it was Koreans' turn. Eventually, the technology and legal framework improve, and the quality of products follows.

Why do I have to give free lessons of History 101 here? Sigh.

duduong
duduong

The US likes seeing Japan unrepentant and thus offending every neighbor, especially China. This serves its strategic need to suppress potential rivals, chiefly China right now, but the list of rivals included Japan and Russia in the past and may do so again in the future. This is the ultimate reason why both the American government and a large portion of the population support Japan, even though Japan is clearly in the wrong here. (The disputed island was administered as part of Taiwan by the Japanese themselves during the 50 years of occupation. Only after the 1972 purchase of Okinawa by Japan from the US, which is highly dubious in itself, did Japan claim the island as part of Okinawa.)

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

Very true.  In the 80's, the US media loved China and hated Japan.  There was Japan-bashing goiing on.  Now it's Japan-passing, as no one seems interested in Japan anymore.  Now they hate China.  They just hate whoever they see as a threat, especially if they are non-white.

Bob William Knight
Bob William Knight

 tell me where i can find the drugs you are on . i'd like to get as stupid

IAF101
IAF101

 The PRC doesn't have a leg to stand on when it comes to Senkakus. If anybody has "any" claim (a highly dubious one!) it would be the Nationalist government of China now currently in Taiwan which was party to the Potsdam Declaration! But the PRC's pathetic attempt to make this an issue shows how desperately the Maoist government is trying to divert the attention of its people from the flagging economic prospects and slowing growth to blind nationalism . The most shocking thing is for people who have lived their entire lives in a propaganda filled atmosphere to fall so easily for another propaganda campaign from the maoist regime is utterly incredible. All I could think is; are the average Chinese so utterly stupid to fall for yet another propaganda campaign ?

It was these same mobs of "patriots" who took part in past atrocities of the PRC like the Cultural revolution, the destruction of the Tibetan monasteries, the persecution of thousands of "intellectuals" etc. Apparently the Maoists have never apologized for that but they keep demanding the Japanese to apologize over and over again just to suit their egos?? That is hypocrisy!

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

The PRC is definitely not Maoists any more. There are some left, but they are not mainstream at all.

The propaganda in China is just like the fever of sports fans. I know you believe your god is the best, but the effect is the same. Everyone knows it and uses it. They are not stupid. Actually the Chinese are too shrewd to realize the importance of compromises.

> The most shocking thing is for people who have lived their entire lives

in a propaganda filled atmosphere to fall so easily for another

propaganda campaign

That's human. I still can't believe Bush Jr. got elected twice. And Obama's socialist doctrine is so obvious but many can easily fall for it.

>> Apparently the Maoists have never apologized for that

Apparently you are not well informed. BTW most of them are already dead by now.

> but they keep demanding the Japanese to apologize over and over again

The reason is the Japanese are still keeping a shrine for their war criminals, including those who committed crimes to American prisoners. Sometimes even their prime minister makes visits there. The Japanese are under the thumb of the Americans now, so the Americans probably can overlook a lot of things.

>  just to suit their egos?? That is hypocrisy!

If that's your reason for seeking an apology, that's your hypocrisy.

IAF101
IAF101

So China is not "Maoist" then ? I wonder why the Communist Party of China doesn't know this with Mao's picture still hanging on the walls across China and Moaist doctrine is still spewed in "patriotic education" camps and villages still having "party" workers writing pithy propaganda to motivate people ?? Or how the "People's party" still prattled on and on about "Chinese socialism" in all the official broadsheets of China and how Hu Jintao was just speaking about Chinese socialism just days ago! Please spare us the rhetoric!

Any nation of people that can allow one madman to kill 40 million of its citizens in the pursuit of ideological objectives like the "Cultural Revolution", "Great leap forward", yada yada doesn't deserve to come anywhere close to words "Shrewd", "clever" or other rosy descriptor you would like to use.

Sorry, its not "natural" to fall for the same hackneyed narrative time and time again - people learn. Georg Bush was "elected" not because the US government perpetuated propaganda like China does on a daily basis in almost ALL walks of life in China but because people supported his ideals. To claim Obama is "socialist" clearly shows how ignorant you really are about the US and president Obama is particular! How can you call a President who bailed out the largest financial institutions in the world "socialist" ?? Do you even know what the term means or like everything in China, it was copied down blindly from Karl Marx's rants assiduously without the actual process of "comprehension" ?

Tell us, since you are so informed, when has the Communist Party of China apologized for running its own people over with tanks ? When has the Communist Party of China apologized to the Dalai Lama for the destruction caused to the Tibetans in Tibet ?? Let me know when they do!

>>The reason is the Japanese are still keeping a shrine for their war criminals, including those who committed crimes to American prisoners. Sometimes even their prime minister makes visits there. The Japanese are under the thumb of the Americans now, so the Americans probably can overlook a lot of things.

Typical oriential paranoia. Even Nazi's have graves and even Nazi SS members are visited by family at their graves - so what?? Get over yourselves! Even war criminals have family and people who miss them!

China was not the ONLY nation on the planet earth that suffered at the hands of the Japanese despite all the whining and noise coming from the Chinese! Do you think Americans families have forgotten about Pearl Harbor ? No. But unlike China, Americans aren't staying up whining all day about Tojo and how the Emperor was not executed or how the Japanese PM visited some shrine. Most civilized nations have understood that you can't hold people responsible for the crimes of people who are no longer alive, nobody today is responsible for the crimes of the past! It's only a big deal because the Chinese whine incessantly stiring up needless nationalism and revanchist feelings that are antiquated in this day and age. Nobody in America cares, nobody in Australia cares, nobody in much of Asia cares but apparently the Chinese think their "hurt" is greater than everybody else! Deluded self importance!!

>>If that's your reason for seeking an apology, that's your hypocrisy.

Clearly you don't even understand the meaning of "hypocrisy" and I can't bother translating it to a language you can comprehend. Shame!

sdfqef
sdfqef

China should unilaterally begin extraction of the gas below the sea at the Chunxiao gas fields.

tengig
tengig

Yeah. Blame the US. Nice one. The Chinese and Japanese have been at each other for centuries (look up the origin of the term "kamikaze"). We don't typically support the bigotry and hatred they seem to enjoy. 

Japan has offered to let the international courts decide the issue. China has refused. Gee .. wonder why. So who's being stubborn and unrepentant? 

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

>> We don't typically support the bigotry and hatred they seem to enjoy. 

Yes, you do enjoy something else.

 The US took over all the research results from the heinous crimes committed by Unit 731, a covert biological and chemical warfare research and development unit authorized by the emperor, a war criminal spared by the Americans. Why would the Japanese feel repentant when they got away with what they did?

The current chair of that relevant court is Japanese (one of the

members is Chinese) until 2014. The Japanese obviously want to take

advantage of that before the opportunity expires.

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

The US occupies North America, which rightfully belongs to Native Americans.  All whites in North America are European invaders.  Just take History 101.

America chose not to prosecute Japanese war criminals.  It did choose to prosecute German war criminals.  The seeds of this current conflict are partly due to America.  To deny this is ignorant.

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

There is no greater bigotry and hatred than that of the West.  Look up "anti-Chinese exclusionary laws".  Chinese and Japanese immigrants were mistreated in the US horribly for a long time, and even now white people hate Asians.  How was the US created?  The Native Americans were evicted off their own land.  What gave the white people the right to do that?  How did the US get Hawaii?  Guam? Puerto Rico?  I could go on.

slowdream101
slowdream101

I'm sorry I can't anyone seriously who uses the screen name 2hot4twat

duduong
duduong

France and Germany have been at each others' throats for centuries; why did they suddenly get along after WWII? Because the US finished the job on Hitler and the Germans repented. If the US had allowed Hitler to stay on as the head of the state like they did with Hirohito, how friendly will French be to the Germans now? If there is a conflict, the fault will not be on the French but on the Americans who allowed an aggressor and murder of tens of millions to get away lightly. 

So, Japan remains unrepentant, and the fault clearly lies with the US. If you don't see that, you must justify the double standard between Germany and Japan. Since the only difference is that Germany's victims were mostly white and Japan's were mostly Asians, logic dictates that you are valuing Asian lives at a steep discount. Look in the mirror and admit that you are a racist.

2hot4twat
2hot4twat

The Soviet Union did the most to defeat Hitler.  Also, Americans are totally unrepentant about slavery, evicting the Native Americans off their land, the anti-Chinese Exclusionary Laws, segregation of Asians from whites, forcing them to live in Chinatown, etc. 

America is in no position to preach.

duduong
duduong

There are three reasons why China does not want to go to an international court:

1. There is no impartial international court. Whichever is chosen will be a puppet of the West, and Japan is far more "in" with them.

2. The island is clearly China's. Why take any dispute to a third party?

3. In ten years, Chinese military will be able to dominate its coastal seas. The dispute will simply go away.

If China proposes that American occupation and annexation of Hawaii is illegal and that Iran should arbitrate this issue, will the US submit to it or flip the finger? Same situation here. 

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

Amibroker:

The current chair of that relevant court is Japanese (one of the members is Chinese) until 2014. The Japanese obviously want to take advantage of that before the opportunity expires.

Compared to the West, the East Asia culture is probably indeed more biased. The Japanese culture was based on an ancient Chinese dynasty, but it has put more value on personal honor. So it is really hard for them to admit mistakes or make concessions.

Amibroker
Amibroker

I haven't taken a stand on the issue, but...

I must say, this isn't a convincing argument.. "2. The island is clearly China's. Why take any dispute to a third party?"

International courts won't be puppets of the west, that is, the nation-states that resides in the west, but, they will be "puppets" of western-culture, as the international standards are largely western ideas.

Relatively speaking, I wouldn't regard that as negative. The western ideals of justice are far more objectively rational than what seems to be the Chinese ideals, imo. The west has a clear ideal of the separation of powers. China do mock trials, at large.  The Justice system is clearly of a more solid and fair form in the west than in China. Note that I'm not saying that the justice system of China does not have a function. It might suit present China and it's internal structure and system well, as opposed to some other system.

But in the matter of solving disputes between states, the international courts are as good as it gets.

IAF101
IAF101

 Simple - because the PRC has no claim before a court regarding this issue because the PRC didn't exist in 1947 and it was the Nationalist government of Chian Kai Shek that represented China. Any judge worth his salt would ask the PRC the same issue. Further, the US occupied the islands and the Chinese never asked for them back in then, so now making a big deal out of these islands is just China's way of trying to start something with the Japanese now that the PRC has all the guns, troops and nukes to back its act up while Japan is relatively weak.

The Chinese are looking for payback and a way to soothe their egos.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

Oh, you are talking to yourself now. Good bye.

IAF101
IAF101

I am merely restating my position so that my words are not "twisted" and "misinterpreted".

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

Why do you still want to discuss with me after you have already declared me "totally insane" as well as "dull and boring"?

IAF101
IAF101

Your welcome. Do you like feedback from your victims ?

IAF101
IAF101

What do you mean "even" during the Japanese occupation? Taiwan NEVER administered the islands for Japan to continue administering them!

Even before the Sino-Japanese war, Japan had been working to incorporate these uninhabited and unclaimed islands into Japan and since 1895 these islands have been part of the Okinawa prefecture.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> Well insane can get dull and boring too....

Thanks for sharing your experience.

IAF101
IAF101

Well insane can get dull and boring too....

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

Thank you for finally admitting that the islands were administered from Taiwan even during the Japanese occupation of Taiwan.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

 > You've been quite dull and boring actually

Glad to know that you are on longer "entertaining" the possibility that I am "in fact totally insane", as you declared earlier.

IAF101
IAF101

So far you have presented nothing. No facts, no proof, not even historical reasons for China's claims.

You haven't presented even a single argument of what claim the PRC has to the Senkakus, of any historical mention of the Senkakus during the Qing Dynasty's hand over of Taiwan or even any proof that Taiwan ever asked for these islands from the US.

Your only rational argument so far has been that the Senkakus were administered from Japanese Formosa, which is meaningless since taiwanese themselves were considered Japanese citizens and the island's administrative districts were altered numerous times for effective administration in the 50 years of Japanese rule!

Unable to provide anything rational to further substantiate your claim you keep parroting nonsense like :" A Fact is a fact"!

If the game is foolishness, then you are right - I am definitely out of my league and I can't hope to best you as you clearly are the expert in that field.

IAF101
IAF101

You've been quite dull and boring actually, I though Communist propaganda had sufficient death however as you've demonstrated it's simply repeating the same flawed points again and again.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> Now, however I am beginning to entertain another possibility - that you are in fact totally insane !

Sure, you know what it's like to be totally insane. You've been quite an entertainer.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

In your post, the way how you actually did the twisting is obvious to every one. But your sentence is no longer a fact and the original one remains a fact. That's the meaning of "A fact is a fact".

You are out of your league here. Go ahead and show more of your temper.

> How about a little sanity?

No, you need to a lot of them.

IAF101
IAF101

>>What makes you think there are no records? You started the argument so you have to provide proof first.

Have you totally lost your mind? I can't tell because your comments have always been wildly absurd and fantastical!

You are the one who claimed the Nationalist government of Taiwan "must have" asked the US for the islands back in the 70s based entirely on your fantasies. And now you ask me to provide proof to disprove your fantasies? I have to provide you with nothing, your ignorance is your own problem!

>>Taiwan is its correct name. "Formosa" was a colonist name.

Which "colonists" are you talking about ?? Because Japan never called the island as "Formosa". Formosa is the portugese name for the island that was adopted in the West! As to "colonist", you mean like the PRC which "colonized" Tibet??

>>Obvious you are also in bed with colonists

As obvious as your PRC propaganda ??

>>Are you saying you try to avoid embarrassing yourself by pretending to know history? Well, you succeeded.

Since you obviously don't know the history I hoped you would atleast try to avoid embarrassing yourself. Unfortunately, you continue to fail as expected!

>>You are saying if you don't agree with me then you are a communist.

Not at all. I'm saying that anybody who can willfully continue to peddle such obvious distortions of history, facts and pedestrian propaganda can be nothing more than a rabid Chinese Communists. Now, however I am beginning to entertain another possibility - that you are in fact totally insane !

IAF101
IAF101

>>A fact is a fact. It can not be totally twisted or misinterpreted.

Wow, "A fact is a fact", did you come up with that on your own or did you have somebody help you ? LOL

Clearly, rational thinking and English comprehension is very difficult for you! Facts can be "misinterpreted" and can be "twisted" to suit a narrative and that is precisely what you are doing here with your ignorant drivel.

No, I don't agree that the Senkakus were administered as Chinese from Taiwan.

>>Because I am not as evil as you are by saying all war activities are the same.

So you are only stupid enough to classify "war crimes" according to whatever interpretation is convenient to you ?? Nice to know!

>>So? Civil disobedience at first. Now the Taiwanese are happy

How can anybody be so totally stupid?? Do you practice???

The "Han" population in Taiwan also held civil disobedience "at first" but soon were joining the Imperial Japanese military of their own free will and protesting Nationalist China at the end. I can show you picture of how "happy" they were as well! So what?? As to Taiwan protests against Japan, it is funny they are protesting after 40 years too late!! I guess ignorance and propaganda takes time to succeed!

>>as I said already, were occupied as part of Taiwan at the time

Just because you say something doesn't make it true. China itself never considered those islands part of Chinese territory to give Japan when it lost the first Sino-Japanese war. How can they be "occupied as part of Taiwan" when those islands were never recognized as part of Taiwan by the Chinese themselves ??

How about a little sanity?

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> A FACT that has been totally twisted and misinterpreted

You must be really stupid. Do you understand what a fact is? A fact is a fact. It can not be totally twisted or misinterpreted. I know people like you want to twist facts. But you can't change facts.

Do you agree that's a fact or not?

> Why don't you state the "FACT" Taiwanese youth served voluntarily, ..are equally guilty of participating in all Japanese military operations

Because I am not as evil as you are by saying all war activities are the same. Search Unit 731 (authorized by the Japanese emperor) and learn some real war crimes. Your school never taught you that, I believe.

> Or what about the fact that Taiwanese initially resisted the Nationalist Chiang Kai Shek government

So? Civil disobedience at first. Now the Taiwanese are happy. Look at the picture in this article and learn what they are doing against your masters.

The last one is not a fact as those islands, as I said already, were occupied as part of Taiwan at the time.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> Because they didn't and if they did the US would have had to respond and there would be records to show this

What makes you think there are no records? You started the argument so you have to provide proof first.

> Taiwan itself was known as Formosa

Taiwan is its correct name. "Formosa" was a colonist name. Obvious you are also in bed with colonists. No surprise here.

> Why don't you at least pretend to know some history before you embarrass yourself ??Are you saying you try to avoid embarrassing yourself by pretending to know history? Well, you succeeded.

> Only the most rabid Chinese Communist can possibly believe otherwise and continue this brazen display

You are saying if you don't agree with me then you are a communist. That argument is so weak.

IAF101
IAF101

>>How did you know Taiwan didn't ask it back?

Because they didn't and if they did the US would have had to respond and there would be records to show this! LOL so you don't have any PROOF to show that Taiwan under the nationalist government even asked for these islands ??

>> Japan is still occupying part of Taiwan.

The Senkaku islands were NEVER a part of Taiwan under the Qing Dynasty. Taiwan itself was known as Formosa and Formosa under the Qing Dynasty never administered these islands and thus they were never ceded to Japan in the first place when they ceded Formosa and the Pescadores islands during the treaty of Shimonoseki!

Why don't you at least pretend to know some history before you embarrass yourself ??

As for the Communists, the PRC didn't even exist during the signing of the Potsdam Declaration or during the subsequent Treaty of San Fransisco and finally was not even recognized by the nationalist government of "Republic of China" to be its legitimate successor! Therefore their "claim" is meaningless in every way.

Only the most rabid Chinese Communist can possibly believe otherwise and continue this brazen display of thuggery of "demanding" Japan to give territory to it that China NEVER controlled.

>> Did you ever graduate from your school?

Do you even know what "school" is or were you taught in some Chinese "re-education camp" between digging ditches and building roads ??

IAF101
IAF101

>>Even under Japanese occupation, those islands were administered under Taiwan, not Okinawa. Is that FACT or not?

A FACT that has been totally twisted and misinterpreted by ignorant Chinese nationalists like you. Taiwan along with the Pengdu island group were "ceded" to Japan by the Qing Dynasty. Japan's 50 year rule over Taiwan and "surrounding islands" was built through a process of integrating Taiwan into mainland Japan through massive public works projects, economic development and political development by giving Taiwanese citizens greater rights than a colony state. The Doko policy of the early 20th century of integrating Taiwan into Japan proper and including Taiwanese ministers into the Japanese Diet saw Taiwan become an integral part of the Japanese Home Islands and this was the official understanding in Japan and in Taiwan at the time. Any territory administered by Taiwan would therefore directly be Japanese as the Japanese government saw Taiwanese as Japanese and Taiwan as Japan's home islands akin to Kyushu or Hokkaido or Okinawa. It was only after the end of World War 2 when the Nationalist government fled to Taiwan that it became "Chinese" after 50 years of Japanese rule and integration.

Why don't you state the "FACT" that Taiwanese youth served voluntarily in the Japanese imperial military and are equally guilty of participating in all Japanese military operations and therefore equally culpable to you so called "war crimes" ? Or what about the fact that Taiwanese initially resisted the Nationalist Chiang Kai Shek government when they fled to Taiwan ? Or the fact that Senkaku islands were never "ceded" by the Qing dynasty to Japan in the first place to "claim" them back today!

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> We are talking FACTS here, not popular fantasy!

Lets see who is delusional.

Japan invaded both Okinawa and Taiwan around 1895. Even under Japanese occupation, those islands were administered under Taiwan, not Okinawa. Is that FACT or not?

> If the Chinese (Taiwan) wanted it, they should have asked the Americans back in the 70s and the Americans would have handed them

How did you know Taiwan didn't ask it back? the Americans clearly did Japan a favor when it gave those islands along with Okinawa to Japan.

> Japan is merely continuing its earlier administration of the islands that it "won" in 1892.

So? Japan is still occupying part of  Taiwan. Japan also "won" Taiwan, but do you want Japan to continue its earlier administration of Taiwan too? Obviously you are in bed with Japanese war criminals.

> The PRC is not recognized.

What? Did you forget to take your medicine?

> the school I went to was far more mature

The school may be mature, but obviously you are still a child. Did you ever graduate from your school?

> The PRC can learn a lesson from the playground and learn to get along or be kicked out of the playground.

Playground? You are really a child. Yeah, Japan played it so well that it lost it's sovereignty. This is not a game for delusional bullies like you.

IAF101
IAF101

Traditionally ? Traditionally, China is also the "center" of the world and China also wants to reclaim its lost glory! We are talking FACTS here, not popular fantasy!

Taiwan's Nationalist government is the "only" china that can even "request" the islands because they were party to the original declaration. The PRC is not recognized and has no locus standii to demand/request these islands from Japan.

The US was the LAST Allied power after WW2 to have control over the Senkakus. If the Chinese (Taiwan) wanted it, they should have asked the Americans back in the 70s and the Americans would have handed them over to Taiwan but Taiwans failure to do so implicitly put the islands under Japanese administration, which was the case before WW2. Japan is merely continuing its earlier administration of the islands that it "won" in 1892.

>>You really think border issues are like your schoolyard?

No compared to the PRC, the school I went to was far more mature with less whining about "historical" grievances. The PRC can learn a lesson from the playground and learn to get along or be kicked out of the playground.

IQMinusOne
IQMinusOne

> Further, the US occupied the islands and the Chinese never asked for them back in then

Non sense. Those islands were traditionally administered by Taiwan. And China has always wanted Taiwan.

The US is supposed to return them to Taiwan in the 1970s. Instead it gave them to Japan.

> a way to soothe their egos.

You really think border issues are like your schoolyard?


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